Thread: Reverse Camber v. Reverse Sidecut v. Pintail v. Traditional

Here.... now you guys have your own thread to argue over which of these things is better and why people are crazy if they dont love one or the other. Now that that is done stop screwing up peoples reviews of skis, whether they like something or not

I will start. Reverse Sidecut, Reverse Camber race skis are not a good idea

I didn't want to ask this in the other thread, but............I still don't get why the ablitly to carve/mach groomers well is so important to you in a huge powder ski. Is it for crud performance? Is it for dealing with super long runouts all the time?

I understand wanting a versitile ski for your needs, but there only so much someone can expect from a ski that's designed for pow. I'm pretty happy with something that is fast on groomers and decent all around, but slays in the pow....the more days a pow ski can be taken out, the better.

If there's a niche for a huge powder ski with a normal sidecut and good groomer performance, maybe it will be filled....

My counter to this query has been the same for a few years, differences in skiing conditions day to day necessitate a quiver of skis. Powder days dictate a need for a powder ski, and I personally am enamored with my spatulas, but as has been elucidated by those who have tried the Moment Comi, a traditionally shaped ski can be just as competent on epic days. Now, supposing Alta gets 6” of snow, that sort of accumulation is not quite enough to call for a 120mm or above at the waist ski, but a ski such as the Explosive or Gotama will perform flawlessly. However, when one is forced to deal with deteriorating snow conditions, such as mid to late January of this season in UT, a Gotama is not the best ski for the job by a long shot, something like a head monster 88 or similar midfat will do the job quite adequately.

Personally, I love reverse camber and sidecut, in anything soft they are my ski of choice, the smearing and buttering, combined with the playfulness more than outweighs the less than stellar groomer performance. On any day I’m taking spatulas out, I’m worrying about my favorite stashes getting tracked out, not if my skis will lay a trench on the groomer or zipper line bumps. If it were my only ski, reverse sidecut and camber would be less than fortunate, and I would much prefer to own a normal camber and sidecut midfat, but I can’t see anyone with spatulas/lotus 120/138/pontoons/sumo/praxix/comi or anything that size as their only ski. I say to each his own, and if you ever ski in a mixed group, say one person on spatulas, one on big daddies, one on this years big daddies, make sure you represent your ski type well so the others don’t judge your skis as “shitty”

To sum things up, I believe that this argument is moot and pointless, each person will go their own way according to their personal preference. As long as other, "normal" skis are involved, there really isn't a wrong choice when it comes to shape, there are some wrong skis, but there are good skis in every shape listed above.

Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

I still don't get why the ablitly to carve/mach groomers well is so important to you in a huge powder ski. Is it for crud performance? Is it for dealing with super long runouts all the time?

The answer is "Yes". The lower mountain is simply not fun for me, if the ski can not carve a good turn. I am not talking the ability to turn, I am talking about the ability to rail a turn at will. If the Snowbird was 3000ft of untracked pow, I probably wouldnt care. But we only see it like that for about 2 hours on a pow day and then the rest of the day is, pow turns up high, bombing groomers at the bottom. And unfortunately I still enjoy digging trenches on a soft groomer even on a pow day. Now remember to keep this debate in this thread so useful information can be passed on in review threads

Here is a thread that I started a while ago.
Traditional and non traditional shape skis

Originally Posted by ski_faster

Here is a thread that I started a while ago.
Traditional and non traditional shape skis

I realize that this has been done before, but the arguing over shapes when reviewing a ski had just gotten out of hand, so I started another one

Originally Posted by Professor

I realize that this has been done before, but the arguing over shapes when reviewing a ski had just gotten out of hand, so I started another one

I agree I was trying to add some more insight to what some people have mentioned. I too like to carve. I own a pair of Praixs, and I am not sure that they are the ski for me.

In my constant gear-whoring... er... quest for different skis, I noticed:

185 Moment Comi - twin - 160-136-145
190 Volkl Sumo - twin - 150-125-142

Comi shape = Sumo shape, but with more taper to the tail. No idea how the flex compares.

Originally Posted by ski_faster

I too like to carve. I own a pair of Praixs, and I am not sure that they are the ski for me.

You shouldnt say things like that. Someone will take it personal and try to convince you that you are wrong

I think I want a ski with traditional sidecut that is built with camber and then has a wire tensioning system built into it like a slingshot bike that allows you, with the flick of a lever, to rocker the front, rear or both by tensioning the wire

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, beats reverse sidecut in crud/crust/mank/etc. A traditionally shaped ski hooks up while a reverse sidecut ski knifes through that stuff. That's why I love my Spats so much. When everyone else is bitching about how tracked up things are, I'm skiing it just like it's untracked fresh.

Have you skied the XXL yet?

Altough it's not 115+ in the waist at 109 it ain't too small. Tips are soft enough for float and having witnessed powder11 slay the fuck out of everything on Blackcomb it's more than stiff and stable enough.

Originally Posted by Professor

You shouldnt say things like that. Someone will take it personal and try to convince you that you are wrong

Naw, people would offer to buy them. Speaking of... how much you want for the Praxis?

Originally Posted by Arty50

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, beats reverse sidecut in crud/crust/mank/etc. A traditionally shaped ski hooks up while a reverse sidecut ski knifes through that stuff. That's why I love my Spats so much. When everyone else is bitching about how tracked up things are, I'm skiing it just like it's untracked fresh.

I think the reverse reverse is something you have to try to believe. Ever since trying the spats and then the 138s, they have become my everyday skis. If I really want to rip some groomers I break out the traditional skis. Lately I'd rather tear up the crud though.

Unless it's a touring rig I can't see me buying anything but reverse/reverse for the foreseeable future.

Originally Posted by Arty50

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, beats reverse sidecut in crud/crust/mank/etc.

"Yes, it does. You did come here for an argument right"

Originally Posted by Professor

"Yes, it does. You did come here for an argument right"

No I didn't.

Originally Posted by lemon boy

I think I want a ski with traditional sidecut that is built with camber and then has a wire tensioning system built into it like a slingshot bike that allows you, with the flick of a lever, to rocker the front, rear or both by tensioning the wire

i like this idea.

we could use an open body turnbuckle, dyform rigging and come up with a "tuning guide" for various conditions.

applying sailing skills to ski design makes perfect sense to me

"Abuse is down the hall......."

130-110-120 - Rossi Axioms Mounted -1

they float in powder, blast through crud, rail down groomers and suck in tight trees and bumps. I haven't felt a hook in chop yet - and they are fun as hell.

I love this shape for 4"+ and they have almost no camber.

Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

I didn't want to ask this in the other thread, but............I still don't get why the ablitly to carve/mach groomers well is so important to you in a huge powder ski. Is it for crud performance? Is it for dealing with super long runouts all the time?

I understand wanting a versitile ski for your needs, but there only so much someone can expect from a ski that's designed for pow. I'm pretty happy with something that is fast on groomers and decent all around, but slays in the pow....the more days a pow ski can be taken out, the better.

If there's a niche for a huge powder ski with a normal sidecut and good groomer performance, maybe it will be filled....

My feelings exactly. That's why you have a QUIVER (and I've seen your basement; you have a quiver) of different tools for different conditions.

It's not like you can't just ski a pow slayer in the am and then swap out to a crud/groomer slayer at the car when your 12er of Silver Bullet needs replacing anyways.

Edit to add that you should seriously just get a pair of Pontoons. You can carve on them. If you don't believe me ask lph.

Originally Posted by hop

It's not like you can't just ski a pow slayer in the am and then swap out to a crud/groomer slayer at the car when your 12er of Silver Bullet needs replacing anyways.

It can definitely be a problem at times, though. If you show up to Whistler's back bowls with the wrong ski it's going to take you like an hour to switch. Not so cool. Hell I even had that problem at Killington...

I'm still not too sure about the idea of rockered reverse sidecut skis. The thing that really pisses me off about EHPs isn't that you can't carve a hard turn on em, you can sort of carve. What I really hate is that skidding them sideways (which is a much more effective way to turn) just ditches so much speed. If its not too steep of a run, its kinda frustrating to have to choose between either a turn radius so huge it doesn't really do any good, or scrubbing a ton of speed.

Someone said how wierd shaped skis rule chop and cut up powder. If its the leftovers from a >12" storm, then yes, they almost make it ski like normal pow. If its the leftovers from anything less than that, I'd rather be able to slice through it than skid across the top.

I keep trying to think about the shapes/flexes of these things to try and figure out what would be best for me. Right now I think I'd like to try something about the shape of the squad, but maybe +10mm everywhere, and with a rockered tip, same flat tail.

Originally Posted by Dromond

It can definitely be a problem at times, though. If you show up to Whistler's back bowls with the wrong ski it's going to take you like and hour to switch. Not so cool. Hell I even had that problem at Killington...

That was more directed personally at the Prof. since whenever I've skied with him at Snowbird he's got front-row parking right along the road right by the tram, and he runs out of the Silver Bullet around noon anyways.

However, if "the wrong ski" makes that much of a difference to you or anyone it probably says more about the skier than the ski. 'Tis a poor craftsman who blames their tools.

Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

I didn't want to ask this in the other thread, but............I still don't get why the ablitly to carve/mach groomers well is so important to you in a huge powder ski. Is it for crud performance? Is it for dealing with super long runouts all the time?

A lot of times around where I ski there can be an Icy rain crust over the entire mountain while it is puking snow. Throw in a little cross wind and you have places that are completely bottomless and places that are gnar gnar ice crust. For example one day a couple of weeks ago I was skiing in a bowl (chief) at my home mountain (stevens pass) and it was dumping snow and there was howling wind. In order to get into the bowl, which had been loaded to the point of awesomeness, you had to traverse across the top of a long and very steep run where the winds where easily 60+ MPH, the traverse was blue ice and I know from experience that a fall on that run can easily equal an ~800 ft vert fall ending in a clump of trees known as the femur trees. The skiing in the bowl was amazing and I wished for a fatter ski but on the way over I really aprecieted having 1.9m of metal edge to stand on. And if for some reason the bowl was roped off and I had to ski down the run I would definently have been scared on a ski like a spat