AT Boot Flex Comparative List by model

[Mulletizer]

The Spirit 3s and 4s don't flex the same; the 4s are stiffer - that extra buckle definitely makes a noticable difference. I have flexed them side-by-side in a shop for comparison although I only have the 4s myself (wouldn't mind getting the buckle off the 3s as a spare though - big weight save for long tours).

I also find that the 4s are noticably stiffer flexing than the Denali TT when using the stiffer black tongue which comes with them; with the 'walk' tongue they are marginally stiffer than the Denali XT (as suggested by Jonathan's numbers).

That said, I have found with my 4s that the stiffness is somewhat negated by shitty boot-liner fit and poor liner quality. The boots shell fit me close but the liners are smaller than the boots and leave room between the shell and the liner toe. I find I get toe pain from the liner (no big deal) - worse is that the liner slides forwards and backwards inside the shell. It's not a boot fit problem, it's that the liners sold with the boots don't fit the shells. And they fall apart easily...

[Tony]

Hmm, no progress here at PDX, so here's an attempt at summary, copied & pasted from a spreadsheet:

Garmont Scarpa Dynafit Lowa
100% plug boot
90% typical consumer stock race boot
89% Shaman
85% mid-range of typical performance-oriented boots 85% Astral
80% Endorphin Hurricane Zzero 4C
75% Adrenalin Tornado Pro Aero FR
70% Denali TT
68% Spirit 3/4
65% G-Ride, MegaRide Denali XT & Matrix Zzero 3C
60% Laser Denali- old red Aero EVO, Light
55% Magic 700
50% Dynamite
45% F1 Evo, Lite, Zzero 2C
40% MegaLite
35% F1 Race Race Pro
15% MLT4 w/o mods

I agree with you on the above percentile rank but the following:

1) DENALI XT
a) The XT is not in the same category as the Matrix. No way! As soft as the Megaride/G-Fit? I would like to hear further opinions about this.
b) Is there a difference between the TT and the XT apart from the color?
c) The Spirit is stiffer than the XT and the Megaride? I would say AS stiff as the Megaride and a notch softer than the XT. Would be nice to hear further opinions about this.

2) Red 4-buckle Denali is stiffer than Laser.
3) Aero Speed is way stiffer than Laser.
4) TLT 700 is a notch stiffer than Laser.

[laseranimal]

Flex Rating Guide for AT Boot Jongs:

90-85 flex rating is the new breed of AT/Freeride boots good for single-day BC forays and mixed on-piste/sidecountry use. They all come with 4 buckles, the stiffest tongues and are best for 20% uphill / 80% downhill.

80-75 flex rating used to be the stiffest boots you could get 3 years ago. They are lighter boots than the Freeride variety, light enough for extended touring but with enough stiffness for decent downhill performance. Probably, this is the most popular category and best for 35% uphill / 65% downhill.

70-60 flex rating is the quintessential lightweight multi-day hut-to-hut touring boot. Think Chamonix-Zermatt: 50% uphill / 50% downhill.

50 flex rating is excellent for the alpinist/ski mountaineer that needs a superlight boot for winter/glaciar approaches and wants to regularly ice/rock climb or walk in them with crampons on. Best for 70% uphill / 30% downhill.

40 flex rating is the land of lycra-laden Euro randonee racers. They are uber-specialized and probably not worth it unless your VO2 max is up there with Lance's. Think Pierra Menta: 90% uphill / 10% downhill.

I like the flex rating but I'd do something with the groups of "notch below freeride" and "hut to hut" boots, as there's a lot of people who will use Matrix's and Denali's more like the first group then the second, true they're on the softer end, but they can be used for that application. Perhaps make the first group 80-70 and the second 70-60?

[snoboy]

I guess I could see a use for it if you needed a vibram sole and didn't want to potentially screw up your alpine boots.

other then that I'm puzzled as well since I can't think of a time when you'd need to have a vibram sole without a walk function.

Might make a good patroller boot. Even then a walk mode might be nice though.

This is another great TGR resource, and I'll be looking at it again next year as I try and decide on a freeride touring boot...

[corn dog]

2. Garmont Dynamite is significantly stiffer than the MegaLite.
Done, upgraded to Matrix stiffness.

The dynamite is nowhere near a matrix, its a cheapo soft heavy boot.

3. The 500 was the econo version of the 700. Was it really any softer? Then again, why not just make the list easier and ditch a discontinued econo boot that nobody is probably going to care about.
The 500 is the predecessor of the 2-buckle boot TLT 4 Lite. I've corrected that on the list. I am with Laser, this list is supposed to help the 2nd hand buyer too.

Jonathan is right. The TLT4(S) has been around for quite a while, just changes colors every now and then. The 700/500 boots newer, early 2002 ish plus a minus (memory is fading)?? The current tlt models all look the same as the old TLT4 plus or minus a buckle or two. The 700/500 boots are completely different, being compatible with non-dynafit AT bindings such as freerides etc, among other things.

[hutash]

I can't add too much information, but comparing my Lange CRL 90 to my G-rides, I would say your 75 rating is about right.

incidentally, the other difference between the G-ride and the Mega-ride, besides Al versus Mg buckles, is the Mega-ride is Dynafit compatible.

[laseranimal]

I think you're right the 700/500 is 2002

Powder September 2002 pg. 92
TLT 700
"Provides better aft support than the Scarpa Laser. The other popular stiff boot with TLT fittings."


Couloir Magazine Oct. 02 pg. 30
TLT 700
" This brand new boot offers an incredible mix of light tourability and bomber ski performance. If you are searching long and hard for the best terrain, its hard to imagine a better boot to bring along."
" The TLT has a forward lean adjustment of polyamide lower shell and an angled upper cuff that will position you right where you want to be over your gear whether your stepping or skiing."
" One really cool feature is the Thermo heating system liner that can be cooked for five minuites at low heat for a super form-fit feeling."
" For serious AT skiers, the TLT 700 is a serious great new option."

[Jonathan S.]

Great info here from everyone!

Major points follow below. I’m not going to quibble with some of the points/rankings about relatively minor differences in stiffness - these things are difficult to nail down exactly, plus even just how tightly the buckles are can matter, etc. And of course there’s foward flex vs lateral vs rear.
Maybe just add a disclaimer that individual impressions can vary by about 10 from the rankings?

[Jonathan S.]

3. “The 500 is the predecessor of the 2-buckle boot TLT 4 Lite.”
- The lineage of the current TLT 4 Evo/Lite (and derivative Race Pro) actually goes back to the very old TLT4 boot (which also had “S” and “Pro” versions over time).
- Tracing out the Dynafit line, setting aside some earlier boots that I wasn’t around for, at one point there was the 2-buckle TLT 3. My wife had this at first (in a non-Dynafit version - yes, a non-Dynafit boot from Dynafit!) - quite light, although not very supportive, and she was very happy when she upgraded to the Magic the first season it came out.
- Then the TLT 4 came out. I borrowed a friend’s back in 1997. If anyone is in the market for a lightweight spring boot, used pairs of these can be a great deal. Compatible only with Dynafit bindings (or a Silvretta 400/404/500/505), walks great, skiability improves with a power strap and rear spoiler (which became standard in later editions).

[Jonathan S.]

3 cont'd
(something is wrong w/ my connection - won't let me post a long reply?)

- The MLT4 was a briefly lived version of the TLT4 - basically the TLT4 lower shell with a climbing boot upper shell & tongue, and only laces, no buckles (though an instep buckle is easy to add).
- At some point Dynafit finally started making a more all-around stiffer boot, called the All Terrain.
- This then became the 700 with some tweaks.
- The 500 was just the econo version of the 700. The lightweight model remained the TLT4 (and MLT4). My guess is that the 500 needs to be moved up to 60 on the list. Either way, it needs to be separated from the Evo as far as naming.

[Jonathan S.]

9. Evo (and similar Lite - comes w/ both tongues and has a lighter liner) needs to be dropped to somwhere around 70. Its place can be taken by the four-buckle (and taller cuff) Stuktura Rodeo and Pro.

10. Three-buckle Aero came out in fall of 2004 ... or was supposed to. (I still have a Nov 2004 proform with it - almost tried to buy it.) Ended up being more like a mid-season Euro-only intro for the 2004-05 season. Ended up being heavier and softer than expected. Very disappointed relative to pre-production info. I sure hope the line for the coming season meets expectations!

[Jonathan S.]

Other points (including rankings for discontinued boots for bargain hunters):
- Denali XT was basically the same as old red Denali in design but stiffer.
- Denali TT changed the upper cuff design & walk/ski switch (similar to Matrix) to make it stiffer in ski mode yet more fore/aft motion in tour mode.
- Let’s add the TR 9/10/12 at 40. (I flexed a friend’s pair - he just keeps them in his garage for display - last week for “fun” and was reminded just how bad they were...)
- Add original Lowa Struktura (and GTX) at 50.
- Put Dynafit All Terrain at 60.
- Garmont GSM at 60.
- Rossignol Raid (my first AT boot!) at 40. (I beefed it up to around 60 with numerous mods.)
- Tambo/Titan at 50.

[pechelman]

wow
you guys are complete rando geeks
glad to have you guys around here

now that this thread has really surpassed my knowledge and gotten pretty comprehensive, Im wondering if it would be better to have this thread stickied or included in marshals list?

either way, nice work to everyone

[corn dog]

If we are going to help second hand buyers then I would suggest discouraging purchase of the Dynafit 500 boots, and dynamites Both soft and heavy for the ski performance. If you need cheap look for a pair of lasers and throw in a flexon tongue and you'll be in the same ball park as a megaride/matrix for performance at slightly less weight.

[laseranimal]

If we are going to help second hand buyers then I would suggest discouraging purchase of the Dynafit 500 boots, and dynamites Both soft and heavy for the ski performance.

I seriously doubt first off that anyone can find a pair of 500's second that anyone would mistake something that looks like this



for a super burly AT boot, but hey I might be wrong


as for the dynamites, thats a good heads up, I had no idea they were soft/heavy but with all the different versions(g-lite/g-fit) its really confusing

[jibco]

Being familiar with sollys flex ratings and putting a few days on my dynafit FR aeros (26.0). I'd suggest that they are a maximum of 80.

Good discussion, even though I'm late and kinda new to the whole AT world.

[Tony]

I think we are on the right track, already made the corrections.

[Tony]

Added the Salomon Ellipse e2 with a 90 flex rating, given TGR posts indicating that it's stiffer than both Tornado and Adrenaline.

[corn dog]

A quick google says salomon gives the E2 a 70, at least the model from a couple of years back. Other ellipse models have higher numbers.
Since salomon alpine boots are listed for the sake of comparison, I suspect that maybe everything from the megaride level on down say needs to be downrated by 10 - 20.
Stock AT boots are rather soft in comparison to mid-upper range alpine boots.

[Tony]

I'd rather trust what maggots feel about the boot than Google, but I downgraded one notch to 85 given the following:

Marshal says "definitely stiffer than Adrenaline": http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=40327

SkiRick says " Tornado and the Ellipse feel pretty equivalent in terms of stiffness": http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=52729

Bad Roo says "The flex doesn't seem a whole lot softer than my 1080s (85 flex)" in the same post.

The rest of the boots have been thoroughly revised (except for the new 2008 models signaled with question marks) and not need to be downrated.

[corn dog]

I'd rather trust what maggots feel about the boot than Google, but I downgraded one notch to 85 given the following:

Marshal says "definitely stiffer than Adrenaline": http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=40327

SkiRick says " Tornado and the Ellipse feel pretty equivalent in terms of stiffness": http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=52729

Bad Roo says "The flex doesn't seem a whole lot softer than my 1080s (85 flex)" in the same post.

The rest of the boots have been thoroughly revised (except for the new 2008 models signaled with question marks) and not need to be downrated.

Um, just pointing out that Salomon has a flex number number for these too, like it has for the other salomon alpine boots offered for comparison
If you're going to use the salomon flex scale for the top end of the spectrum why not use it a bit more widely, since they have boots with lower numbers. Thats the thought behind my suggesting a lowering of the numbers of the AT boots across the board. The comments you quote seem consistent with the idea of lowering most or all of the AT boots a bit, even the stiffer ones. And consistent with others' claims that there is a big gap between the AT-focussed boots (e.g. megaride) and alpine boots with a 95 flex.

[Tony]

I see your point but most people already agreed on the numbers we gave the AT-focused boots. Doesn't make much sense to me doing a blanket downgrade for all the boots just because Salomon screwed up grading the flex of an obscure low-rated rental alpine boot by 10-15 flex points (which by the way seems to be a terrific AT boot).

My point being: the Gun and X-Waves are some of the best selling Salomon boots so I rather trust those for flex index comparison than the e2.

Nevertheless, if more people agree that the current flex index of the AT-focused boots is off target I am all for downgrading. More opinons are welcomed.

[Larryl]

I just read this thread. Very good info indeed. Where was I? Oh yeah, out touring somewhere.

I've been touring with the Scarpa Spirit 4 for about three months now. I generally agree with Mulletizer's assessment of stiffness. When I first used the boots, I had one hell of a time using the soft green tongue. I could not feel the skis. I switched over to the stiff black tongue and what a difference it made. However, I don't have any problem with the fit of the liner. I wear two pairs of socks though. Maybe that helps? Don't know.

[mojorisin]

I just skied the SAC spirit 3s, and while they felt pretty soft (compared to xwave 10s), it wasn't at all a problem until hitting some semi set-up crud at speed... which you shouldn't encounter too often in the bc. Can't wait to get some dynafits... (oh yea, skiing in walk mode is awesome )

I wonder if the (real?) difference between the spirit 3s/4s is the unhinged tounge that comes with the 4s. I feel like the 3s could be significantly stiffened w/out gaining too much weight - tornado tounge and booster straps?

...I'm not so sure that a 4th buckle would significantly stiffen the 3s all by itself...

[Larryl]

I just skied the SAC spirit 3s, and while they felt pretty soft (compared to xwave 10s), it wasn't at all a problem until hitting some semi set-up crud at speed... which you shouldn't encounter too often in the bc. Can't wait to get some dynafits... (oh yea, skiing in walk mode is awesome )

I wonder if the (real?) difference between the spirit 3s/4s is the unhinged tounge that comes with the 4s. I feel like the 3s could be significantly stiffened w/out gaining too much weight - tornado tounge and booster straps?

...I'm not so sure that a 4th buckle would significantly stiffen the 3s all by itself...

I do use Spirit 4 on Naxo 21 to march downhill (yeah, even mogul runs from time to time just for the hell of it. Real fun, let me tell ya!!!!). I am not sure about 4th buckle either, but the stiff tongue makes a huge difference.