Advantages to more rocker?

[Below Zero]

So I'm standing in line at Abasin and I see a guy on a pair of Hellbents. I noticed that they have way more rocker in the tip and tail than the Praxis.

I can possibly see the advantage of having more rocker in the tip to prevent tip dive and keep you floating in the deep stuff, but why have more rocker in the tail?

It would seem that having just enough rocker in the tail to allow the ski to pivot would be enough.

Thoughts?

[Z]

My personal dream ski is rocker like the new 138s, but with NO rocker in the tail. Stiff flat tail for support landing drops. Why rocker the tail? It could just cause you to wash out on landings.

[Below Zero]

Isn't what you describe the EHP - rocker in tip and none in tail?

Rockering the tail does make the ski very easy to pivot and enjoyable in powder tree skiing though.

Also though, does the tail really wash out if you are landing in deep powder?

[marshalolson]

My personal dream ski is rocker like the new 138s, but with NO rocker in the tail. Stiff flat tail for support landing drops. Why rocker the tail? It could just cause you to wash out on landings.

yup. totally agree. i would love a 138 shape/rocker in the front half of the ski, and a 120 type shape (5mm more tail width, flat camber) in the tail.

more pop off the lip, more stompy, and still smear turns like a champ.

the EHP is not rockered. it just has a long shovel.

[Z]

Yeah. The ehps just have a long slow SOFT rise in the tip. Except mine, those have rocker.

IMO the EHPs and 120s are good idea that doesn't really do anything super well. Yeah they ski pow great, but a rockered ski does it better. And they ski cutup pow well, but a traditional stiff ski, or rockered ski that is STIFF throughout does it better. See what im getting it?

The only thing ehp/120s rule at is stomping to pow. And that's because you can't get the tip to sink and the flat stiff tail rules. Give me more stiffer rocker up front and the same EHP tail and I would buy em...

ps. I think i need to talk to stephan...

[Z]

Also though, does the tail really wash out if you are landing in deep powder?

"washing out" was a bad term I suppose. But when you land something, if it decides to push you backseat (bigger hits or flatter landings) you could "rocker out" if the tail is rockered. No support. Hard to explain but kinda see what im sayin here?

[Below Zero]

"washing out" was a bad term I suppose. But when you land something, if it decides to push you backseat (bigger hits or flatter landings) you could "rocker out" if the tail is rockered. No support. Hard to explain but kinda see what im sayin here?

Yeah, I understand what you mean. I've only taken small hits on the Praxis (12 feet max) into pow, so I haven't really experienced that.

So your "dream" ski you are describing - do you actually edge them or pivot them? I'm trying to imagine how one actually skis the 138 or something similiar. Maybe I'm not asking the question correctly. Do you know what I mean?

[Yossarian]

ps. I think i need to talk to stephan...

Yeah, you do. But let's convince him to make it something other than 138 white or 120 purple. I'm already sold on the design, let's discuss topsheets. How about something that blends from 138 white at the tips to a true flat black underfoot and back to 138 white again at the very end of the tail, representing the merger of the 138 and 120 design? The red stripe goes through the whole thing.

Badass.

[Below Zero]

So what's advantage of the Hellbent? Is it just a Maiden with reverse camber?

[JeffreyJim]

I agree with Z/Marshal but FWIW what I have hit on the Praxis (reverse camber) has been easier to land than on a conventional ski. I like being able to stay on top of the ski whereas normally I'd be worried about going over the bars.

[pechelman]

where do you draw the line between tip rocker and a loooong shovel ala dp120 and ehp193s?

edit: not that I agree with this statement, but for arguments sake, one could say that the spat has an extended tip\tail.

[Below Zero]

I agree with Z/Marshal but FWIW what I have hit on the Praxis (reverse camber) has been easier to land than on a conventional ski. I like being able to stay on top of the ski whereas normally I'd be worried about going over the bars.

^^That's in deep powder landings though, right?^^ Hucking onto hardpack wouldn't be easier, although I have not tried.

[laseranimal]

rockered tail is a nice feature to have in places like the EC where in the trees you don't want the tail to bite, you want it to wash out so you can pivot the ski side to side

I can see what Z is saying though

[Below Zero]

edit: not that I agree with this statement, but for arguments sake, one could say that the spat has an extended tip\tail.

What does this mean? I guess I'm getting confused about the term differences between "reverse camber", "rockered", "Long Shovel". Can someone help my jongness?

[soul_skier]

you want the solomon rocker...

[Z]

Yeah, I understand what you mean. I've only taken small hits on the Praxis (12 feet max) into pow, so I haven't really experienced that.

So your "dream" ski you are describing - do you actually edge them or pivot them? I'm trying to imagine how one actually skis the 138 or something similiar. Maybe I'm not asking the question correctly. Do you know what I mean?

Edge. I don't pivot and I have no desire to. Carving turns and getting the G's is where it's at in pow. For me obviously, just a preference.

And yeah, there is no real difference between long shovel and rocker. It's all about how much there is. Big difference between a 138 rocker and an 120s rocker..

[Below Zero]

you want the solomon rocker...

How does that ski? What are the specs?

[JeffreyJim]

Rocker=Flat underfoot then turned up some point before a traditional tip or tail
Long Shovel=Same thing in reference to tip
Reverse camber=no point of being flat

[Below Zero]

^^OK. I have been using the term "rockered in the tip and tail" as the same thing as "reverse camber", but if you say "rockered in the tip and tail" that implies there is a flat spot under the ski, correct?

[JeffreyJim]

For example...

Pontoon=Rockered tail tip
Spatula=Reverse Camber

[Yossarian]

^^OK. I have been using the term "rockered in the tip and tail" as the same thing as "reverse side cut", but if you say "rockered in the tip and tail" that implies there is a flat spot under the ski, correct?

er, you mean "...same thing as 'reverse CAMBER,' but if you say..."

Otherwise, yes.

That is, regular tips and tails << rockered tips and tails <<< reverse cambered.

Ski shape (side cut, etc) is a different, albeit related issue.

To confirm: rockered basically means super long turned up ski fronts and/or backs, more than a regular tip or tail, but with a flat spot underfoot so that it isn't fully "reverse cambered."

[Below Zero]

^^yeah, that's what I meant, reverse camber. oops^^

[lax]

sw pow landings

[soul_skier]

How does that ski? What are the specs?

192 cm long, big shovel, 120 at the waist, rockered tip, normal camber tail.

[JeffreyJim]

For the record my perfect ski would be...

120 under foot, very little sidecut
190CM+
heavily rockered tip
normal tail (flat, maybe twin)
Stiffer than my Praxis but not much
Damp
Light