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12-17-2006, 12:25 PM #1
Bootfitting: what is the right ramp angle and forward lean anyways?
Sorry guys: this is a Xpost with epic, but wanted some less anal ideas too (and more people on TGR then epic)
So, I've read, and posted, re-read, some of the threads about ramp angle, balancing, forward lean etc. I understand that these things will effect the skis/skiers performance and balance, but what angles are we (bootfitters and skiers) looking for to start with for angles?
Ramp angle is the bootboard (zeppa) plus the binding ramp angle in total.
Forward lean is the angle of the boot that forces/keeps you from being able to stand upright.
The goal is to find balance, by adjusting things to find make it better, but what is the starting point for ramp angle, and forward lean?
I know that everyone is different in many ways: Different ankle ROM, body size, skiing ability, skiing terrain, ski sidecut, calf shape, etc, but what numbers should you start with?
the overall goal, as I see it is to have the skier with:
even pressure on left and right skis.
even pressure on medial and lateral side of each boot.
even pressure on the tongue and the back of the boot.
To alter these pressures is the best place is to start with changes closer to the extremities? in this order?
change the ramp angle (change the boot board angle, or binding ramp angle)
change the forward lean of the boot
change the boots placement forward and back on the ski.
All of these changes are done with a balance board or pressure plates and the goals of the changes are listed above.
Something else to consider is all this is static measurement and adjustment and and skiing is not a static sport. Skiers must be able to move in 3 plans of motion.
12-17-2006, 03:09 PM #2
12-17-2006, 04:14 PM #3
I've read a lot of his stuff, but no info with numbers, just it can be changed, but to what and why and how much?
12-17-2006, 05:44 PM #4
Change it until it works. Alternately dwell upon it endlessly though many alterations until you're pretty much guaranteed that nothing will ever get a chance to work.It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy
12-17-2006, 06:02 PM #5
Most race boots have a forward lean angle of 15-16 degrees, and a ramp (bootboard) angle of 6-8
degrees. The net ankle angle is forward lean minus ramp angle, which in most cases is around 9
degrees. This is why most people need to have at least 10-12 degrees of flexion range in the
ankle (past 90 degrees) in order to ski in balance (see heel lift section that follows). In the
majority of people, this range of flex in the ankle allows the knee to sit above the ball of the foot
- an athletic ‘ready position’ common to many sports. If a boot is verticalized, the forward lean
angle is reduced along with the resulting ankle angle. In most skiers, this canhave a negative
effect on balance and performance by transferring pressure to the heel, decreasing the ability to
pressure the tongue of the boot effectively, and functionally reducing the role of the ankle joint.
Nonetheless, there seems to be a persistent underground trend towards altering boots to make
them more ‘upright’. This does not include removing forward lean shims to create more room for
people with large calves, regain range of motion, and encourage a natural skeletally aligned
stance. Removing forward lean shims is often a good idea (except in those that have thin calves).
There are few clear indications for testing verticalized boots, and the alterations are usually
permanent. One group of people that may benefit from a more upright cuff is those that have a
proportionately longer lower leg and shorter foot.
From this link:
12-17-2006, 10:03 PM #6
i don't think there is a "right one"
langes are all designed with 5* ramp and 15* foward lean. i like the way it skis but it can get a little fatiguing if you're not on a steapish slope. for powder i'd guess you'd want less unless you had a lot of tip in front of you. for less agressive skiers/technique there is usually less foward lean in the boot. i think "right" is whatever is comfortable for you and your most common skiing conditions. which i'm guessing for you is steap and pow on long fat stiff skis.No longer stuck.
12-18-2006, 01:24 AM #7
You also have to take the binding into account.
Bindings have a lot more forward lean now than they used to, but I think boots have remained the same. I'm not sure this is a good thing...it's very fatiguing to try and stand with your knees so far forward, and it's actually harder to get shin pressure when you have to flex so deeply to get it.
12-18-2006, 05:41 AM #8
I find that for freeskiing, having a fairly upright stance and large range of motion at the ankle makes it easiest to absorb rough terrain and ski agressively. Being able to stand nearly upright when cruising is much easier on the quads.
12-18-2006, 03:52 PM #9
I had never really thought about this until my last time out. I skied my Teledaddies with freerides, and no toe plate which increase the ramp angle. They felt great, and then I got on my K2's with Lange boots, and felt like my heels were in a hole. I had my boots fit with a 3* wedge, and it made a big improvement. That being said, the fitter I used said he usually fits a 5* wedge as his standard first try, then adjusts up or down on how the boot skis. We went 3* because I knew I was already close, and 5* would have been too much. If you over ramp you quickly run out of boot flex to drive the skis.
So in summary, if you feel the need to increase the ramp, 5* is a good first try, then tweak from there. Hope that helped.
12-18-2006, 05:13 PM #10
What's the most accurate way to measure both binding forward lean and the sum of a bott's ramp and forward lean angles?
12-18-2006, 06:17 PM #11
binding ramp =
meausure the bottom of the ski to the bottom of the boot at both the toe and heel.
that info and the boot sole lenght and some math (sin, cos, etc) and you can find out the angle
12-19-2006, 10:05 PM #12