Thread: Jamie Pierre's Cliff Hucking Ministry - A Christian's Perspective

Originally Posted by minddoc

You sound like a Calvinist

Maybe I'm totally missing your joke, or I don't know enough about Calvinism. My understanding is that Calvinist believe that only a predetermined group of people make it to Heaven, eliminating free will.

Originally Posted by minddoc

You sound like a Calvinist

If Calvinism were involved, there would have been no other possible outcome to JP's huck.

well, i can't respect a 'god' who apparently made JP's huck possible while dropping the ball continually in history. So, he (no capital needed until its earned) stood by JP but neglected the Jews/Gay/Gypsies/Blacks in WWII, the Cambodians, the Turks, blacks in this country for 350 years, the Sudanese ect. ect. ect. I honestly don't care what he did with the other 99.9% of his time and effort, he's dropped the ball in major ways.........


-aaron

God as a clumsy, amateur juggler...I LOVE the imagery. What does he wear? Is he on stilts?

Originally Posted by FrankZappa

Would you please go jump off a cliff now? Come on. Sacrafice yourself and spare us.

YUK!

Seconded.


Ever heard of sheeple? You're one of them fluffyballs.
But please continue to believe the myths if you'd like.
As long as you don't interfere with my worship of Zeus, Hera, Aries, et al.
On second thought, ignore frank zappa's advice--keep blah blahing about the lord--it makes for an amusing read. We don't have enough of you god-fearing christians on this forum!

Fluff, did I say that all Christians hate gays, etc? Nope. I said that I don't care for the Christians that feel that way.

I did not say that I was a Deist.

Benny Hinn is a charlatan, as are most televangelists. His healing routine has been exposed in the reputable press as being a hoax.

Originally Posted by Telefunken

His healing routine has been exposed in the reputable press as being a hoax.

Well that's a relief. If the reputable press hadn't exposed the hoax, I would've been obliged to believe the guy.

I heard Jamie Pierre is eyeing like a 255 ft. cliff. That's crazy! He just needs to SAC up and do it!

Originally Posted by Telefunken

Fluff, did I say that all Christians hate gays, etc? Nope. I said that I don't care for the Christians that feel that way.

I did not say that I was a Deist.

Benny Hinn is a charlatan, as are most televangelists. His healing routine has been exposed in the reputable press as being a hoax.

I believe I said those exact things in my post (That I assume you do not), I wasn't portraying any of those things on you, merely using it as an example.

As Far as Benny Hinn goes, I'll be honest, I shouldn't have said a word, I don't know a thing about the man or his ministry. I am fully against using tricks to display God's power.

Originally Posted by gonehuckin

well, i can't respect a 'god' who apparently made JP's huck possible while dropping the ball continually in history. So, he (no capital needed until its earned) stood by JP but neglected the Jews/Gay/Gypsies/Blacks in WWII, the Cambodians, the Turks, blacks in this country for 350 years, the Sudanese ect. ect. ect. I honestly don't care what he did with the other 99.9% of his time and effort, he's dropped the ball in major ways.........


-aaron

Interesting that you site God as the reason for all of these terrible things. I know I'm opening the door to natural disasters, but everything you've mentioned was opression and killing at the hands of men (Many of whom called themselves Christians, though missed Jesus' message on loving your neighbor and your enemy). I agree with you, those are awful and said truths of this world, but how is God to blame? We have free will, otherwise we would just be robots following God. We dropped the ball, and continue to do so. I'm not sure my point came across in my original post, I do not credit JP's huck to God's Will, to me it seems like an unlikely way to demonstrate grace.

Originally Posted by fluffballs

Interesting that you site God as the reason for all of these terrible things. I know I'm opening the door to natural disasters, but everything you've mentioned was opression and killing at the hands of men (Many of whom called themselves Christians, though missed Jesus' message on loving your neighbor and your enemy).

Was it not once believed that man was made in god's 'image'?
Why would the illusion of this myth quit now?
We have pretty much disproved all that early religious dieties believed, one by one, scientific fact by scientific fact.

Why would 'your' clinging to christianity be any different...refutable in the face of even the mildest scrutiny?
Tough row to hoe, as it were. Lot's o' stones and apples afoot....

So, what about natural disasters?

Originally Posted by natty dread

So, what about natural disasters?

Damn good question...what about the previously unforeseeable population explosion, war, disease, fight for potable water, arable land, and 'stable' environmental areas in which to procreate and 'develop'?

As well as the wholesale purging of the inventory of natural fish, wildlife, timber, and fresh water stocks? leaving us, with what, exactly?

Polar bear hides as HUGELY valuable stocks in trade of a pillaged planet?

(GRUUUMBLE)

JP is pretty nutty.
But having seen his segment again just last night, I take his Jesus statements not to mean that God is protecting him, but that God gives him the strength and confidence in life and in death to take risks of life that others see as nutty. I recall his statements are more to the effect of witnessing for Jesus than showing that Jesus is protecting him.

My God doesn't interfere in small matters of life.
My God is not the God of miracles (other than the miricale of life itself).

I can't have it any other way. For to admit that God can save JP from his own insanity, or cure the individual with a disease is to also to admit that he refused to save the people that die or suffer undeservedly everyday.

It is to admit that God refused to save the life of my own son JJ. Or my father. Or David. Or Newt. etc.
That I cannot admit or understand.

God is love and positive energy.
God is life.
God is overhead powder snorkel goodness.






"The purpose of life is to be the eyes and ears and conscience of the creator of the universe" - Kilgore Trout

Fluffballs has come out as supporting love for all beings.

How can you dump on a guy like that?

Whatever his belief system, don't you agree he's arrived at the right place?

If loving everyone and every being isn't admirable I don't know what is.

Originally Posted by rideit

Was it not once believed that man was made in god's 'image'?
Why would the illusion of this myth quit now?
We have pretty much disproved all that early religious dieties believed, one by one, scientific fact by scientific fact.

Why would 'your' clinging to christianity be any different...refutable in the face of even the mildest scrutiny?
Tough row to hoe, as it were. Lot's o' stones and apples afoot....

I like your style, and it's ridiculously late for me, so I will gently wade through your heavy well placed questions.

It is still very much believed that we are created in the image and likeness of God, or at least I and every true Christian believes that. Your quote relates to men doing terrible things, so I'm assuming that you're drawing the conclusion that because we are created in His image and likeness, He then is like ourselves, and takes credit for, or even partakes in, our evils. Yes we are created special in comparison to everything else on earth, we have souls and conscious thought, and lets face it, we rule. But I have to go back to free will, without it we would just be senslessly following God, because that's how He designed it. Yet God gave us Free Will, and the right to choice. In doing so He allows for true love, for how could you truly love someone without choosing to do so? Of course for pure love to exist pure evil must as well. So as men commit evil they are turning away from God (Pure Love). Even I, who claims to know God and to have given my life to Him continually turn my back on Him because I seek the pleasures of evil (Read: I am the worst of sinners). So in my evil actions I am fleeing God, so He is removed from it. How could pure love partake in evil?

I have a Bachelor's of Science, and find truth in scientific fact. In my original post I mentioned how I don't believe science disproves God in anyway. Think about it simply, If God is God, meaning He's an all knowing, all powerful, every capable being. Then wouldn't He have written the rules? If He created it, then He defines our science, He set it in motion, He tells it how it works. I don't know of a single scientific truth that disproves God. Can He break these laws, of course, He's God. Think about how intricate and amazing the current theory of evolutions is, that's pretty impressive to create a system of cells so complex that it one day turned into us.

On a side note, the theory of evolution is still just that, a theory. It is one that I personally find compelling and believe to be true, but we haven't scientifically (with out a doubt) proven it. Someday.

Your last questions sounds familiar, and I'll try my best to come at it straight. Can I see God? Hasn't happened yet. Does He audible talk to me? Haven't heard it. Can I physically feel Him? No sir. So then He must not exist right? But I'll ask you this, why is it that we can experience love? Where does the sense of pride in watching your child take its first steps come from? Why do we experience joy when we ski? Are these just chemical reactions in our brains? Those are some pretty sweet reactions, and we're rather lucky that those happened by chance. And the last thought to ponder, say you believe in the big bang theory, say sciences proves without a doubt that was the method and can even dublicate it. Where did the matter come from to create to begin with? Basic scientific fact, matter can not be created or destroyed. So was it just out there, just floating around because it was, and that's what was there since......forever? That's a hard one for me to wrap my brain around.

So there is a piece of my reason for believing in God. Why Christianity? First off, historical facts. Secondly, there are many religions that teach that we are to love eachother and to do well by one another. But what makes Christianity unique is the concept of grace. It is the only religion in which unconditional grace is present. In every other religion people try to do things to bring themselves to the level of God. Impossible if you think about it, how is a person ever going to do enough on their own to be on plane with the ultimate being? But in Christianity, God comes to us, quite literally. The recognition is that we cannot be perfect, we need His help, His sacrifice to be able to be in His presence (Heaven).

It actually wasn't my intention for this to become a debate, rather to give a christian perspective on 'hucking for Jesus'. And I think that many of you would agree that Jamie Pierre creates a greater distaste and distrust in Christianity for you. Perhaps I have done the same. There simply is no way for me to adequately represent Jesus, just to tell you what I know.

Dang, some good stuff came throught while I was writting that novel.

Originally Posted by natty dread

So, what about natural disasters?

I don't claim to know everything by any means. And I certainly can't tell you how God is working. Natural disasters and tragedies occuring to innocent people is a tough area for me. I don't believe in Karma, just don't think it can exist with Christianity, God forgives, plain and simple. Yes some reject this forgiveness, but there is a final Judgement for all. (I admit that sounds a little crazy.) So the best I can think about it, again, for pure love to exist evil must also be present. For evil to be present it must be manifested right? It's a sad truth, but it allows for the pure joy and love that we are able to experience daily. Please don't take that as, I get to experience pure joy because others were unfortunate and suffered. Rather, we all (victims included) get to experience some form of love, hope or joy on this earth, and we all share in the sadness and hardship that comes with life. If watching people be killed, starved, enslaved, and oppressed doesn't bring sadness to your heart you may exclude yourself from the above.

Originally Posted by Core Shot

JP is pretty nutty.
But having seen his segment again just last night, I take his Jesus statements not to mean that God is protecting him, but that God gives him the strength and confidence in life and in death to take risks of life that others see as nutty. I recall his statements are more to the effect of witnessing for Jesus than showing that Jesus is protecting him.

Now this is what I really wanted to talk about. Interesting, I've only seen the small clip that was posted on here. That sounds like he's got some better theology going. Though I am still troubled by his witnessing as it is so easily construed with protecting/testing God. Perhaps that means a more full explaination, but then of course he runs the risk of running off more of his intended viewers. Of course JP is human and cannot fully represent Jesus, nor can I. But with such a platform I wish he would be more careful in how he portrays himself. I've read obscene quotes of his, and in that video the song drops an S-bomb. I personally am not offended at all. However, if JP is trying to witness he must be above reproach. He is going to be under the strictest scrutiny from people who will see his words and his actions as hypocritical. Those two things just seem like easy areas to control when trying to witness.

I'm sorry for you losses.

Goodnight

Originally Posted by fluffballs

I believe I said those exact things in my post (That I assume you do not), I wasn't portraying any of those things on you, merely using it as an example.

As Far as Benny Hinn goes, I'll be honest, I shouldn't have said a word, I don't know a thing about the man or his ministry. I am fully against using tricks to display God's power.



Interesting that you site God as the reason for all of these terrible things. I know I'm opening the door to natural disasters, but everything you've mentioned was opression and killing at the hands of men (Many of whom called themselves Christians, though missed Jesus' message on loving your neighbor and your enemy). I agree with you, those are awful and said truths of this world, but how is God to blame? We have free will, otherwise we would just be robots following God. We dropped the ball, and continue to do so. I'm not sure my point came across in my original post, I do not credit JP's huck to God's Will, to me it seems like an unlikely way to demonstrate grace.

I didn't say god caused, I said he neglected. as a human race, we have seen the demonstration of totalitarianism (slavery, nazism, stalinism, religious extremism, cults) showing that we as humans are not endowed with inalienable 'free will' from the heavens above but that our 'free will' is of a cultural nature and 'free will' can be removed from a society. neuroscience has also demonstrated that freewill and a sense of self are the function of certain pathways and chemical reactions that our brains undertake. these pathways and chemical reactions are also disruptable.
not suprising are the intersections of culture and these pathways/reactions. individuals in cultures developed around the 'self' show very different brain patterns than cultures developed around the aggregate or community. religious fever, like 'free will' and a 'sense of self' is also detectable. meaning that while religion is changeable in a cultural, it is also changable biologically. the question then begs itself, why is christianity (or any other religion) viewed as an absolute Truth with a capital T?

-aaron

There is no TRUTH. it is indecipherable. Like taste, smells, air, all things subjective. To argue otherwise is a fools exersize...which many, many the world over waste their time flexing muscle in front of only self-viewable mirrors.

All faith is vanity. And all vanity is destructive. And a great slice of pizza, regardless of style, is irrefutably divine...neopolitan, sicilian, deep dish, or Luna.
and THAT is an undeniable fact.

Enjoy Pizza, and tip your server. The world might stand a chance.

^^^i wonder if a slice of pizza, or some prayer might help me get to sleep^^^^^^

Originally Posted by fluffballs

I don't claim to know everything by any means. And I certainly can't tell you how God is working. Natural disasters and tragedies occuring to innocent people is a tough area for me. I don't believe in Karma, just don't think it can exist with Christianity, God forgives, plain and simple. Yes some reject this forgiveness, but there is a final Judgement for all. (I admit that sounds a little crazy.) So the best I can think about it, again, for pure love to exist evil must also be present. For evil to be present it must be manifested right? It's a sad truth, but it allows for the pure joy and love that we are able to experience daily. Please don't take that as, I get to experience pure joy because others were unfortunate and suffered. Rather, we all (victims included) get to experience some form of love, hope or joy on this earth, and we all share in the sadness and hardship that comes with life. If watching people be killed, starved, enslaved, and oppressed doesn't bring sadness to your heart you may exclude yourself from the above.

So you're saying God killed hundreds of thousands of innocents in the tsumani to "allow for the pure joy and love that we are able to experience daily." Yes, I'd say that's more than "a little crazy."

Originally Posted by gonehuckin

I didn't say god caused, I said he neglected. as a human race, we have seen the demonstration of totalitarianism (slavery, nazism, stalinism, religious extremism, cults) showing that we as humans are not endowed with inalienable 'free will' from the heavens above but that our 'free will' is of a cultural nature and 'free will' can be removed from a society. neuroscience has also demonstrated that freewill and a sense of self are the function of certain pathways and chemical reactions that our brains undertake. these pathways and chemical reactions are also disruptable.
not suprising are the intersections of culture and these pathways/reactions. individuals in cultures developed around the 'self' show very different brain patterns than cultures developed around the aggregate or community. religious fever, like 'free will' and a 'sense of self' is also detectable. meaning that while religion is changeable in a cultural, it is also changable biologically. the question then begs itself, why is christianity (or any other religion) viewed as an absolute Truth with a capital T?

-aaron

I fail to see how the demonstration of totalitarianism (slavery, nazism, stalinism, religious extremism, cults) rules out free will from heaven. Is that because if free will came from heaven then we wouldn't be capable of those things? That then obviously wouldn't be free will, rather set boundries. I think you can see the problem with that. Sorry if I'm totally misunderstanding what you wrote, it's still early, but I think you may have meant 'can't' rather than can be removed from soceity, also I'm assuming 'disruptable' was supposed to be 'irrefutable'. Not trying to correct you, you wrote that at 4 in the morning, just telling you how I'm reading it.

Nueroscience, I'm totally ok with that, and yes I've taken classes on and have some knowledge regarding the pathways. It's pretty amazing stuff, and yes, we do know that when certain chemicals hit certain places that elicits specific feellings/emotions. It just seems like an awfully lucky coincidence that by random chance those pathways were created. It would then be just as likely that we ended up with no sense of love or companionship, simply because these pathways were not necessary for life. You could argue that in order to procreate love and companionship became necessary. Yet animals have been procreating since their inception and they do not possess these pathways, therefore they are not necessary for life.

Can you imagine life without those feelings, no love, hate, joy, peace, comfort, anger, sadness, companionship? What would we be?

Originally Posted by fluffballs

You could argue that in order to procreate love and companionship became necessary. Yet animals have been procreating since their inception and they do not possess these pathways, therefore they are not necessary for life.

That is an arrogant human assumption, my friend. You have no way of proving or disproving that statement...it shouln not be involved here.

That is all.

yeah maybe i can explain the idea that totalitarianism removes free will from society a bit better. I'm not refering to those who institute totalitarianism. I am talking about the victims. the victim's free will disappears. after a few generations, free will wouldn't even be an idea. cults are a good example. have you ever met someone in a cult? they have no free will at all. in fact some need to be 'deprogramed' in order to once again function (muchless demonstrate freewill) outside of the cult.

on the second point, i would say that yes there is a necessity for those emotions in our biology. all of those emotions cause actual changes in our physiology. lets take anger as an example. anger triggers the adrenal glands, enabling people to act with greater strength in the face of a perceived danger. love is much the same. love is also protective emotion. think about your children. if you didn't love them, then they would be SOL on developing the skills necessary to ensure their own life. if you didn't love them, you wouldn't protect them from outside threats. it would be difficult for our species to survive without these emotions.
Animals also demonstrate many of the same emotions. it would be difficult to say that a dog doesn't feel companionship, love, anger, embarassment, ect. As species, we develop these emotions to the degree necessary for our survival. a single cell organism doesn't need to feel emotion for survival, its threats aren't that complex. do animals demonstrate these pathways? they certainly could but they are different and we may not even recognize or have the ability to isolate them.
i'm playing a bit of devils advocate here but i find this exchange interesting.

-aaron

If I were a Christian and had an egomaniac fuck like Jamie Pierre spouting off at the mouth like he did in High Life I'd want to hang the fucker on a cross myself...one movie he's calling all skiers "fucking pussies" and the next he's telling everyone to think of Jesus on the cross as he head flops off of a 255' cliff. I love a guy that can talk the way he did in High Life but then claim to be a Jesus Freak at the same time...if Pierre is really in tight with God does that mean god might call people he doesn't like "fucking pussies" too?