Thread: Jamie Pierre's Cliff Hucking Ministry - A Christian's Perspective

Originally Posted by fluffballs

Perhaps I'm closed minded, but to me the only grace is 'God's grace'. In what other religion does God come to the people for salvation. My understanding is that in every other religion the individual must work to get to God.

.

Please take no offense, but it is a mere opinion that 'god came to the people'.
Just cause a bunch of gullible people whipped themselves into thinking a very nice jewish boy was the son of god does not the son of god make. it is all interpretation. And to assume otherwise IS manipulating scripture, or worse, it's intent.

Fluffballs, we've discussed religion to no end around here. I just figured you'd be interested in these threads if you haven't already read them.

http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50508

http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55007

http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56986

http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51382

Originally Posted by rideit

Please take no offence, but it is a mere opinion that 'god came to the people'.
Just cause a bunch of gullible people whipped themselves into thinking a very nice jewish boy was the son of god does not the son of god make. it is all interpretation. And to assume otherwise IS manipulating scripture, or worse, it's intent.

Exactly.

Thanks, rideit. You answered the question that Fluffballs posed to me.

Originally Posted by fluffballs

Do I believe homosexuality is wrong? Yes, it is written in the Bible. But I also believe that lust is wrong, and I fall into that temptation daily. How then could I say that I am any better than a homosexual? I am not, we are equally sinful. Though I certainly believe that I should not be stripped of my legal rights because I fall short of the glory of God, and neither should a homosexual. In this way I believe that gay couples should be allowed to have the legal rights of marriage. I do however believe that marriage is a sacred communion between a man and a woman before God. In this way I cannot condone homosexual marriages, but I can also not deny homosexual couples their legal rights. I'm ok with legal unions, give people their rights.

So why is homosexuality wrong? And don't say, "Because its written in the bible". Humans are animals. After a specie becomes overpopulated, it reverts to homosexuality to reduce the population. It is a completely natural thing.

And I lust every shower after your mother and sister.

Originally Posted by adam

So why is homosexuality wrong? And don't say, "Because its written in the bible". Humans are animals. After a specie becomes overpopulated, it reverts to homosexuality to reduce the population. It is a completely natural thing.

Murder and rape is normal for animals. Why is that wrong for humans? [/DevilsAdvocate]

Originally Posted by adam

Humans are animals. After a specie becomes overpopulated, it reverts to homosexuality to reduce the population. It is a completely natural thing.

And I lust every shower after your mother and sister.

WTF? is huffing popular in High School again?

huffing?

Originally Posted by Core Shot

JP is pretty nutty.
But having seen his segment again just last night, I take his Jesus statements not to mean that God is protecting him, but that God gives him the strength and confidence in life and in death to take risks of life that others see as nutty. I recall his statements are more to the effect of witnessing for Jesus than showing that Jesus is protecting him.

My God doesn't interfere in small matters of life.
My God is not the God of miracles (other than the miricale of life itself).

I can't have it any other way. For to admit that God can save JP from his own insanity, or cure the individual with a disease is to also to admit that he refused to save the people that die or suffer undeservedly everyday.

It is to admit that God refused to save the life of my own son JJ. Or my father. Or David. Or Newt. etc.
That I cannot admit or understand.

God is love and positive energy.
God is life.
God is overhead powder snorkel goodness.






"The purpose of life is to be the eyes and ears and conscience of the creator of the universe" - Kilgore Trout

"It's hard to be proud of a stunt like that ... If it wasn't for my faith in the lord, I would be dead [crosses himself]."

-Jamie Pierre, Engleberg CH.

Originally Posted by adam

huffing?

87654321

You know what happens next, right pal?

Originally Posted by fluffballs

I figured you must have some experience with Christianity, where did you go to school?

Perhaps I'm closed minded, but to me the only grace is 'God's grace'. In what other religion does God come to the people for salvation. My understanding is that in every other religion the individual must work to get to God.

Just questions, as I don't claim to know it all. Where is grace in Hinduism? Isn't your cast determined by your actions in the previous life through Karma? You mess up, you pay the price, you do well, you advance (a very simplified overview). I don't see where forgiveness falls into that equation.

Judaism is essentially the same, uphold the law and you will go to Heaven. Of course the law was impossible to uphold, thus the need for a savior.

I don't want to pick at other religions, I have a lot respect for people of all faiths. For the most part we all hope to show God's love to one another. However, I do believe that there is only one way to the Father.

Regarding my manipulating of scripture, that's a big deal to me. If I have truly done it I want to be shown where and how to correct my mistake. I was trying to tread lightly, but my hope is that I didn't sugarcoat any of the basic principles to make Christianity sound more appealing.

Don't take this the wrong way - I'm just discussing.

But while I understand the practical implications of no one being perfect and therefore grace being necessary... I don't see how it makes you a bad person if you follow some other religion that would encourage you more strongly to actually be a better person and not rely on forgiveness? If anything, it should be the other way around, no? Yet (granted this is based on the Christian faith my parents follow) - if you're of any non-Christian faith, you're going to hell no matter how good you are or try to be unless you accept Jesus. So what of people never exposed to Christianity? And how fair is it if you're a mass murderer who asks forgiveness the day before you die and therefore goes to heaven when a person who lived an exceptionally good and altruistic, but not quite perfect life should go to hell for not accepting Jesus? What is that? Or the fact that you would still be unsaved if you lived in a time and place where you could never have known the "right" religion to have chosen order to go to heaven? As a kid I got a lot of "well life's not fair" and "that's just the way it is" responses in Sunday school and from my parents, but nothing that ever made sense to me.

Originally Posted by rideit

Please take no offence, but it is a mere opinion that 'god came to the people'.
Just cause a bunch of gullible people whipped themselves into thinking a very nice jewish boy was the son of god does not the son of god make. it is all interpretation. And to assume otherwise IS manipulating scripture, or worse, it's intent.

Originally Posted by uncle crud

Exactly.

Thanks, rideit. You answered the question that Fluffballs posed to me.

Rideit, you've been respectful the whole way through, I will not take offense to a mature argument.

But that's my misues of scripture? That I'm assuming that it says that Jesus is the Son of God? I don't think any interpretation is needed to see that scripture clearly says this. John 20:30 "But these [Jesus' mircles] are wrttien that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever Believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Those are Jesus' own words. 1 Corinthians 1:9 "God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful." I could go on and on and on. So am I misinterpreting or manipulating these words when I believe they say that Jesus is the Son of God? Sorry those aren't the best verses, but I just opened up my Bible and found some quick ones.

Adam, I'll get to your question, but I've got to run.

Remember, ALL of the scriptures were written by men, who, by christian logic, are all sinners. There are reasons, whether known or not, that 'scripture' was passed down, re-written., re-interpreted, or reinforced by MEN. Often tired, delusional, sleep deprived, and to a degree self serving monks. This stuff did not 'come down from on high', the bible was copied by undersexed, frustrated orphans, until Gutenburg. That is the beauty of the Torah...every 'given' in the O.T. is questioned, and furthermore, signed off by who questioned it.
Back to the marketing campaign theory...at different times in history, different words and pedagog(ies) were acceptable (or not) to the clergy as well as the population at large. What we read today could very well have had a MASSIVELY different context or tone, in response to social, political, sexual, or scanadalous events of the day. In other words, to be skeptical of ANYTHING that mankind has codified and accepted as irrefutable truth would most likely be laughable, disgraceful, but ultimately pardonable to the quasi Rabbi Jesus.I am sure he would have dug the discourse. Mankind is strange...religion simply provides a convenient framework to justify particular cultural idiosynchrasies.
That, and it made for a good time to get together and share wine and olives now and again, and meet some single hotties.

PS: it is also well known that Jesus loved his wine, women, and all sorts of colorful characters. If your good friend tended to get drunk and call himself the 'son of God', but otherwise was harmless and helpful, would you immediately believe him, and tell everyone else? Jesus was just a dude, when it comes down to it. The Apostles were his marketing machine, just like pop stars today.

I agree with Rideit: God is an imaginary friend for adults. Rideit, you are way to lucid, are you off your meds again?

Yeah, I miss me, too. I guess I'll catch up with myself soon. Maybe by e-mail, but text message would be better. I wish I had my number.

(and yeah, I ran out of drugs...bummer! Probably better for the PT, however. It is hard to work out when you are babbling about celery.

Originally Posted by rideit

Yeah, I miss me, too. I guess I'll catch up with myself soon. Maybe by e-mail, but text message would be better. I wish I had my number.

(and yeah, I ran out of drugs...bummer! Probably better for the PT, however. It is hard to work out when you are babbling about celery.

That's the problem, we need to up your dosage, then the lord will find you.

depending on the doseage, it will either be the Lord or Frozenwater. That boy has a nose for the good stuff.

The only thing that bothers me about organized religion is messianic impulse to spread it. To me, every brilliant idea has never really needed to be sold.

This is why JP's exaltation of God and hucks to try to get me to believe bother me. This is why missionary work bothers me. This is why much of any religion bothers me. I gotta give it to the Jews though, I can't say I've ever really felt like I was trying to be coerced by them.

Originally Posted by dirtybryan

The only thing that bothers me about organized religion is messianic impulse to spread it. To me, every brilliant idea has never really needed to be sold.

Hinduism is non-proselytizing; as are several others. The latter religions are much bigger on message dissemination.

Originally Posted by rideit

Remember, ALL of the scriptures were written by men, who, by christian logic, are all sinners. There are reasons, whether known or not, that 'scripture' was passed down, re-written., re-interpreted, or reinforced by MEN. Often tired, delusional, sleep deprived, and to a degree self serving monks. This stuff did not 'come down from on high', the bible was copied by undersexed, frustrated orphans, until Gutenburg. That is the beauty of the Torah...every 'given' in the O.T. is questioned, and furthermore, signed off by who questioned it.
Back to the marketing campaign theory...at different times in history, different words and pedagog(ies) were acceptable (or not) to the clergy as well as the population at large. What we read today could very well have had a MASSIVELY different context or tone, in response to social, political, sexual, or scanadalous events of the day. In other words, to be skeptical of ANYTHING that mankind has codified and accepted as irrefutable truth would most likely be laughable, disgraceful, but ultimately pardonable to the quasi Rabbi Jesus.I am sure he would have dug the discourse. Mankind is strange...religion simply provides a convenient framework to justify particular cultural idiosynchrasies.
That, and it made for a good time to get together and share wine and olives now and again, and meet some single hotties.

PS: it is also well known that Jesus loved his wine, women, and all sorts of colorful characters. If your good friend tended to get drunk and call himself the 'son of God', but otherwise was harmless and helpful, would you immediately believe him, and tell everyone else? Jesus was just a dude, when it comes down to it. The Apostles were his marketing machine, just like pop stars today.

Good post. Don't forget that the scriptures were written many years after the fact...and then translated a couple of times. People and their pedantic ramblings of how they know God because they've studied the bible really annoy me.
Revelations has been wrong to everyone who has read it for the past 1900+ years or so.....or maybe that happens after you die.

I do believe in God. I DO NOT believe in man and his mass controlling power called religion.

Originally Posted by dirtybryan

I gotta give it to the Jews though, I can't say I've ever really felt like I was trying to be coerced by them.

To clarify another mistaken point asserted by fluffball:
There is no concept of 'heaven' in classic talmudic/Judaic philosophy. It boils down to doing good on THIS earth.

No reason to upsell/beg for others souls, when your own is a handful enough to deal with in a morally acceptable fashion.

11th Commandment: Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

Originally Posted by altagirl

Don't take this the wrong way - I'm just discussing.

But while I understand the practical implications of no one being perfect and therefore grace being necessary... I don't see how it makes you a bad person if you follow some other religion that would encourage you more strongly to actually be a better person and not rely on forgiveness? If anything, it should be the other way around, no? Yet (granted this is based on the Christian faith my parents follow) - if you're of any non-Christian faith, you're going to hell no matter how good you are or try to be unless you accept Jesus. So what of people never exposed to Christianity? And how fair is it if you're a mass murderer who asks forgiveness the day before you die and therefore goes to heaven when a person who lived an exceptionally good and altruistic, but not quite perfect life should go to hell for not accepting Jesus? What is that? Or the fact that you would still be unsaved if you lived in a time and place where you could never have known the "right" religion to have chosen order to go to heaven? As a kid I got a lot of "well life's not fair" and "that's just the way it is" responses in Sunday school and from my parents, but nothing that ever made sense to me.

Altagirl, mature questions/arguments are not going to offend me, a Christian who doesn't question their faith is misguided.

"Faith without works is dead" Anyone who has truly accepted Christ into their heart will be changed, they will be compelled to love and serve others, otherwise they do not truly know Jesus.

You've hit the most difficult topic of my faith to deal with and to defend. I struggle greatly with what will happen to those who were never given a chance to hear God's message. The famous verse is John 14: 6 Jesus says, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I can't pick an choose my scripture, and that one is pretty clear that those who do not accept Jesus as their savior are out of luck. So what does this mean in my life. I must do my best to spread the word of God and to show His love, making my best effort to give people a chance to know Him. I don't know what's going to happen, and I must live my life according to the scriptures. I cannot know God's reasons or ways, but it is hard for me to believe that some flat out don't get a chance. There is some hope, 1 John 2:29 "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of Him." I could interpret that to mean something nice and fuzzy, but I will hold to the fundamental belief that you must give your life to Christ to be saved. I'm sorry that there isn't a better explaination, I wish there was, I wish it were easy. We can't know God's plan or motives, but in every way He is proven to be just and loving. I will simply have to do my part in helping spread His word, apparently through online forums

Originally Posted by rideit

That, and it made for a good time to get together and share wine and olives now and again, and meet some single hotties.

PS: it is also well known that Jesus loved his wine, women, and all sorts of colorful characters. If your good friend tended to get drunk and call himself the 'son of God', but otherwise was harmless and helpful, would you immediately believe him, and tell everyone else? Jesus was just a dude, when it comes down to it. The Apostles were his marketing machine, just like pop stars today.

Can't deny the first part, Church is a great place to meet quality girls.

Jesus a womanizer? Yes He was receptive to women, and honored them as they should be, I don't know that you can point to anything past that.

I fully understand that scriptures have been passed down. Blurred please remember that some of the original authors did have firsthand experience with Jesus. Paul wrote a large part of the new testament while imprisoned for preaching the word of God. If the Apostles were His marketing machine, what did they have to gain? These are the men who knew Jesus, if He was a crock why would they be laying their lives down to spread His name? Seems to me that they must have been convinced that He was the Son of God to endure the hardships and eventual sacrifices to proclaim Jesus' teachings.

As far as what Jesus said, I don't think anyone can find fault in His teachings. Could this be the work of man over Hundreds of years? Seems to me that Jesus' teachings would have become much more politically based inorder to benefit those sinners doing the 'translating'.

Originally Posted by fluffballs

If the Apostles were His marketing machine, what did they have to gain?

how about eternal fame? fortune beyond belief, the following of millions of people?
one look at saddleback church here in Irvine, the Vatican or any other major christian center shows that there has been a lot to gain $$$$$$


-aaron

Originally Posted by rideit

To clarify another mistaken point asserted by fluffball:
There is no concept of 'heaven' in classic talmudic/Judaic philosophy. It boils down to doing good on THIS earth.

No reason to upsell/beg for others souls, when your own is a handful enough to deal with in a morally acceptable fashion.

Touche, I did say that wrong.

Originally Posted by gonehuckin

how about eternal fame? fortune beyond belief, the following of millions of people?
one look at saddleback church here in Irvine, the Vatican or any other major christian center shows that there has been a lot to gain $$$$$$


-aaron

That place is crazy, but the Apostles themselves got nothing, they were oppressed, tortured, beheaded and murdered. I doubt as they saw their counter parts get lit up as torches at parties they were thinking, "man if I just keep preaching I will be able to get that new robe, a donkey, and Sarah from Corinth will finally fall for me." Rather than, "If I just denounce that Kook they will spare me." I'm pretty sure they believed Jesus exactly who He claimed to be.