Silverton gave me BLUE BALLS !

[board]

and not because I didn't get laid or it was too cold.

Bottom line is I will not be going back to Silverton until they are able to allow people to use the mtn unguided. I felt like a dog on a short leash. I have been there twice and have spoken with multiple individuals ( some of which are on this board ) who have been there also and I now feel my assessment is fair and should be presented. Silverton is an INCREDIBLE mountain ! The terrain is mind blowing, the lines are endless, they are blessed with good snowfall and as soon as the BLM grants them a permit to allow unguided skiing and boarding this will be a Mecca for expert skiers.

Now for the honest truth on the current state of affairs. As it stands now they are only allowed 80 skiers per day split into guided groups of 6-8. This means that you and your group must ski every single run with a Silverton mtn guide. No problem right ? So you get a guided tour for your 107.00 $ sounds good huh ? You'll be able to ski lines and find stashes you never could on your own. NOT EVEN CLOSE ! ! ! ! ! You are hand held from beginning to end under the guise of safety some of which is understandable but honestly they are farming there turns there to a degree that is beyond frustrating.

First they move the group down the hill one at time like you are crossing dangerous avy zones, which you are not in most cases . This area is skier compacted just like most any ski areas. Are there areas on the mountain where more care is needed ? Of course but not every single run and movement needs to be conducted in this manner. For example. bumped out trees. Do we need to literally make 10-15 turns stop gather the group and proceed to repeat down a 2000 foot run ? HELL NO ! this is the reason that a fast group of skiers and boarders got a total of 4 runs in a 5 and a 1/2 hour day ( they didn't get us on the lift until 10:15 even though we were all there no later than 8:45.) one more way they are able to farm their turns they simply limit your actual moment time on the hill

As I stated before I have been there twice now, once last season on a beautiful 20 plus inch pow day and just this last saturday on a 3 week snow drought. So I have seen the best and worst of times there and the guiding system was consistently frustrating. And when I say frustrating I mean MIND NUMBINGLY INFURIATING ! ! ! First off you as a paying customer will have almost zero input as to what runs you get to access. Both times I have been there I have made suggestions of which none were ever realized and on two occasions brought impatient almost angry responses from my guides. Although I am obviously speculating on this part but it seemed to me they were releasing pent up frustrations of dealing with angry clients on a daily basis and not being able to give them good answers.

Case in point after 2 runs on Saturday that gave us hard crusty to solid junk snow I asked our guide if we could just ski the lift line as it was soft and not too badly tracked to which he said that no clients get to ski that run because they save that for their lift ops. WHAT THE FUCK !!!! you mean you are saving lines for employees ? after I asked him if any clients ever get to run it he said I'm just doing what I'm told in an angry tone. late r in the day after we had done several hikes for bad snow we all collectively asked if we could ski this soft looking run ( tiger 1 ) that lead into some nice trees to which we were angrily told " well I was going to show you something cool, but ..." so we all excitedly said fine lets go to which we once again hike for 30 plus minutes to access horrible snow.

Last year on the beautiful pow day I was there I asked my guide to take us to a run I had been scoping on every lift ride to which she said sorry but the snow safety crew hasn't been able to bomb it yet and it's not safe. This was an acceptable although disappointing answer I had to accept. However not one hour later there were 10 tracks right through the very line I requested and no bombing/charges and been done. When I asked my guide about this she snappily answered " well that is Aaron's ( owners ) call nothing I can do. even more frustrating was when we were shown some nice areas both guides I had when mark a far left or right boundary the group was not to cross. This was typically wide enough for 2-3 people in the 8 person group to get some nice snow the rest of the group would be left fighting over scraps. btw none of the "boundary " line marking I experienced had anything to do with safety it was purely turn farming.


Look in all fairness it had not snowed in weeks and I never expected deep snow conditions but just like my first experience there last year we were not allowed to make suggestions as to what we wanted to ski and more frustrating was the fact that we took 30-40 plus minutes to ski runs that on my own would have taken 5 minutes tops ! This just isn't something I enjoy. I can easily guide myself at most ski areas and in the BC, collect more vert, get better snow or at least long sustained runs in the same type of snow, move at the pace of my group and generally just enjoy myself more. I honestly hope Aaron and his group can hold out and make it happen. Like I stated before if Silverton were allowed to operate with unguided skiing I think the place will explode but in the mean time I can not recommend it as it currently operates with the guiding system they have in place.

I realize this is long and rambling and since my organizational and writing skills are severely lacking I have no idea how this post will come off to those who haven't met me. All that aside I needed to get this off my chest but by all means go check out Silverton for yourself and draw your own conclusions.

[truth]

Silverton is in a fight for it's life. They are dangling by a thread to gain that permit and even one minor incident of a jong getting in trouble could be the kiss of death that oponents will sieze onto with a vise grip until every last bit of fight is sucked from the soul of North America's very own La Grave. Cut them some slack and keep supporting Jen and Aaron now so that the dream will be realized for years to come.

[CaddyDaddy77]

Board, sorry sounds like it wasn't all it was cracked up to be on your trip.
On the boundry part, where they were farming turns was this on the back? Also, was it multiple runs or just one?

I know in some areas, their agreement with the BLM doesn't allow acces to all of the area, we had to ski out one of the days bootpacking in an area that was pretty chopped up from 3 groups before us, while to the left of us was a pretty nice slope with fresh on it, hitting rocks on the way down while that was on my left was definitely frustrating.

[Yossarian]

FYI, even with the traffic that silverton does see, the mitigating effect that skier compaction has on avalanche danger is minimal. In order for skier compaction to signifcantly reduce avie danger, you need a BUTLOAD of skier traffic, far more than Silverton gets.

The rest was a very interesting perspective, however. Thanks for being willing to put it out there. Hopefully, that permit comes through soon.

c

[board]

Truth,
I posted this with full knowledge of what you are saying but I can not justify spending my money on the product they currently offer. Although as I sated in my original post anyone who is curious about the skiing should definitely decide for themselves.

Caddy,
They did this both times I was there on all runs.

Yossarian,
The avy subject is a deep and involved one that requires much detail, but to give you some skier compaction info I think the fact the one run we ere in had bumped trees is a pretty good indication of what we were dealing with.

[The Reverend Floater]

Originally posted by Yossarian
FYI, even with the traffic that silverton does see, the mitigating effect that skier compaction has on avalanche danger is minimal. In order for skier compaction to signifcantly reduce avie danger, you need a BUTLOAD of skier traffic, far more than Silverton gets.

The rest was a very interesting perspective, however. Thanks for being willing to put it out there. Hopefully, that permit comes through soon.

c

Werd. Skier compaction is a myth.

[STD]

hey board,

I'm sure Aaron would like to hear this type of input. You've obviously made some good points regarding the understanding of safety issues and such, but operationally Aaron can't be everywhere and know everything that's happening.

I think up front, honest feedback is necessary, maybe even mandatory, for Silverton to move forward and become what all of us are hoping for. I'd urge you to shoot him an email.

[CaddyDaddy77]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by board
[B] They did this both times I was there on all runs.

That would be farming turns, hands down, lame.

It's a great operation, just a lot of hurdles to get over in the coming years, I hope they make it.

[Magoo]

I understand what board says. I also understand the other side of the equation.
Silverton is (and should be maintained as) a lift accessed back-country ski area. With the US knee-jerk concerns about lawsuits (from just about any possible direction), it is very difficult to figure out how to deal with something like what Silverton is trying to accomplish. Aaron and Jen are in a very difficult position -- and so are the guides. One problem, and "poof" it's all gone!
I just hope the best for the whole situation. I'm afraid that until US society can legitimately accept the notion that individuals are responsible for their own actions (NOT likely!), Silverton will continue to be restrained in the manner they are.
You want to ski incredible, lift accessed terrain with no restrictions? Go to the Alps or South America....

[Woodsy]

Originally posted by The Reverend Floater
Werd. Skier compaction is a myth.

Rev,
I disagree.
It has been mentioned over the last few days a lot from Andrew M, Bruce T. & the others on the UT avie report
Drew H from today:

Cornices were quite sensitive and some were triggered from a distance. In addition, shallow naturals were reported in the lower elevations running on surface hoar. And to totally complicate the picture, areas that have seen less traffic were more sensitive than the other usually hammered shots. A full list of activity can be found at 364-1591, which I’ll have updated by 8:30am. We continue to appreciate the backcountry observations that we receive.

now UT bc gets worked around the City & Canyons so apllying elsewhere is hard but to say ski compaction is a myth goes to far.

[truth]

Originally posted by Magoo
You want to ski incredible, lift accessed terrain with no restrictions? Go to the Alps or South America....

Some of us do.

[funkendrenchman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CaddyDaddy77
[B]

Originally posted by board
They did this both times I was there on all runs.

That would be farming turns, hands down, lame.

It's a great operation, just a lot of hurdles to get over in the coming years, I hope they make it.

Sure doesn't sound like a great operation from board's experience on 2 different trips . For $107/a day it would be nice if they worried as much about today as the future. Of course, I haven't been there, but from that description I know I won't be going there until I hear things have changed.

[board]

Rev,
The Silverton snow safety team says that skier compaction is a valuable tool for them. A couple of the guides even said it was a deciding factor in being able to open some of their terrain.

[The Reverend Floater]

Originally posted by Woodsy
Rev,
I disagree.
It has been mentioned over the last few days a lot from Andrew M, Bruce T. & the others on the UT avie report
Drew H from today:

now UT bc gets worked around the City & Canyons so apllying elsewhere is hard but to say ski compaction is a myth goes to far.

This is an ongoing point of contention among avy experts and probably always will be. My argument is that you take slab like that one in MT last week (7'+), even greater-than-average backcountry traffic isn't going to settle that thing or keep it from sliding. I'd say the idea of skier compaction is effective in some cases, but not as a rule by any means.

[CaddyDaddy77]

Originally posted by funkendrenchman
Sure doesn't sound like a great operation from board's 2 different trips there. For $107/a day it would be nice if they worried as much about today as the future. Of course, I haven't been there, but from that description I know I won't until I hear things have changed.

As mentioned, it has it's challenges, and hiccups that prevent it from being what it could be. But as forementioned there are some changes that will have to happen in order to get these hiccups out of the works.

I really think that it is a great operation with good guides, an intelligent and well-educated (snow-science) owner/ operator, and great vision.

The change in the community from this operation is significant, it's not just a way-station between Durango and Ouray / Telluride anymore, people are stopping, staying and spending money, lots of new houses and other projects have started this past year.

I definitely aggree, that Board's trip was not what I would seek out, but the possibility of what Silverton can be is what I envision.

edit,
I hope that compaction works, two days of sludging around in waist deep-snow to set the base this early season were with just that in mind. I think that skier compaction has to be effective, but I would imagine very difficult to measure as to what effect it has.

[board]

Funken I would be happy to go into great detail for you at any time to help you make your decision on a Silverton Trip. I want to state EMPHATICALLY though that this post was by no means an airing of grievances meant to harm Silverton's reputation or dissuade ANYONE from going. I simply wanted to share my experience with others. Lot's of people have written glowing reviews of the place and I just thought I would add to the information that is already out there.

[Endlessseason]

Originally posted by The Reverend Floater
Skier compaction is a myth.

?.

They've been doing it for four years in the Highlands Bowl at Aspen Highlands. Until skier compaction proved to be so effective, the bowl had been closed since the patroller avalanche deaths of '84. Skier compaction is what keeps that bowl open to the public now.
There are many other examples of how well skier compaction can work, but the Highlands is a prime one to remind everyone about.

[MacDaddy]

Originally posted by board
Truth,
I posted this with full knowledge of what you are saying but I can not justify spending my money on the product they currently offer. .

Great report
Very interesting, I'm thinking I'm putting my trip on hold for now.
I would like to guided but, I was hoping for a large area to ski in. not this.

[Odin]

Just to offer a perspective, the reason that guides do a collect and stop, sometimes has nothing to do with the terrain that you are skiing on.

Last year a guiding operation in the Wrangells took a Doc and his group of friends up on a ridge in the Wrangells. Now for whatever reason the doc decided to jump a ridge away from the guide and ended up in a gully. The whole slope slid and (RIP) he didn't make it out.

So even with bad conditions the guides were probably trying to maintain an order within the group/get a head count.

I couldn't imagine that it would be very good for Silverton to have someone get lost on their property. Granted most of the skiers up there are supposed to be "Advanced" or "Expert" but really; skill level on the slopes and skill level in the BC are two entirely different things.

And yes the slope you were travelling on might have been safe to you, but what about the myriad of unmarked cliffs in the trees or the terrain traps/slopes directly adjacent. Each operation has a right to manage the terrain in the way they feel is the safest, and until they get their forest service permit allowing unguided skiing/riding you just have to go with the flow.

I have seen (and so have you I imagine) slopes that are tracked up relativly extensivly that have slid before. All it takes is someone finding the week part around a rock, or hitting the break point on a slab, now granted these are generally not moguled out. Just offering my 2 pesos.

[Arty50]

Hmmm...may I present a different perspective.

Telepath has been out here in Tahoe the last week or so and he raised some interesting points this weekend while skiing with the Weed crew.

As some of you may know he hails from Europe and generally skis at La Grave and Serre Chevalier (sp?). Anyway, he explained that group skiing out there is very different and is more safety concious. To sum it all up, everyone sticks together and never skis far enough away where they can't help each other out. He was very surprised at how we were all skiing. People were hucking off of stuff and sorta running all over the place. As a result we easily lost track of people. So he raised an interesting question, if we're not keeping track of each other than what's the point in skiing together? Made perfect sense. Sure it slows everyone down, but at the same time if anyone gets hurt (especially considering the fact we're jumping off of stuff) then it pays off.

So now take that philosophy and apply it to Silverton. I'd argue that they're just following a proper group skiing mentality, which is especially important given the increased level of avy danger there.

Edit: What Odin said.

[Yossarian]

with respect to backcountry "skier compaction:"

what they do at Aspen Highlands, the top of Silverton, and "many other places" is NOT skier compaction in the sense that myself and the Rev are referring to. What Highlands and Silverton do is boot pack and ski pack the hell out of starting zones, which IS an effective tool, yes.

However, just because you always see tracks on certain slopes in the b/c does not mean that it gets skied enough to significantly reduce avie danger. That's what we're saying. Skier compaction in the b/c, by which I mean, that some people consistently ski parts of a certain slope, doesn't cut it. A slab instability could be triggered next to the more heavily skied area, and the fracture could extend into the apparently "safe" area, for instance. Happens all the time. Also, what happens when a layer doesn't get skied, then gets buried? Or wait, how about, particularly in CO, UT, WY, MT, and interior BC, the development of depth hoar from within the snow pack, underneath it all, slowly eroding the strength of the pack from within? Exactly. Now we're getting it.

[meatdrink9]

Good report. I know board and know he doesn't bullshit. I would go nuts if I were in the same circumstances. For me skiing is about freedom. Being wrangled all together told where you can skiwould suck. I've skied with guides before, but they never kept us back from places. They usually helped scope the cliffs we planned on hucking. Saving fresh lines for employees while people paying $107 per day are stuck on packed bumps is thievery.

I too love the idea of what they can become, but it doesn't sound like they are there yet. I think it's fair to share a perspective like this. Nothing can harm a business more than a bad experience. Might as well wait until a good one can occur.

[Endlessseason]

Board-

I have to agree with you about being underwhelmed at Silverton. I wrote last February on Powmag about the exact same experience.
I've contributed my money to the cause by paying for a guided day and helping to sponsor two chairs. Now, I'll wait to see if they ever open it up to unguided skiing.
Because of farming, I don't think we ever skied a single stretch of more than 50 feet of untracked during a six-run day, even after several feet of new pow. I was also surprised that most of the runs we did were less than 1700 feet of vertical, according to my Suunto--equivalent to about half a run back home.
Anyways, I'm not going to badmouth such a great concept. I'll just wait until they end the farming but still keep the number of riders in check.

[board]

Odin and Arty you definitely make some good points but the issue I had was the EXTREME nature of the group dynamic. Let me illustrate an example. We are all standing on the bottom 1/3 of a wide open 25-30 degree drainage with about 500-600 vertical feet to go. There are no terrain traps the entire run to road is visible. Once again our guide cuts a boundary 15 yards ( I'm being generous here ) to our left even though the run is at least 50 yards wide to the left, he then proceeds to ski down half the run to which we all ahve to ski to him gather and repeat to the bottom. There was no reason we could not have continued on past him and to the road ourselves. Just another slow and painstakingly cautious approach that never allowed us to really ski any of the terrain and get into ANY sort of rhythm. in a word...BRUTAL.

[joshbu]

Just generalizing here, but guided skiing OFTEN gives you blue balls. You could very easily take your report and replace "Silverton" with any number of heli, cat, and touring operations out there. They have to be super cautious (to the point of absurdity sometimes,) or else they would be sued out of existance.

edit: forgot some words...