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  1. #1
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    partially torn disc L3 or L4

    That's what my diagnosis was about 10 years ago when I first had incapacitating back pain. It forced me back from JH early, and has been a somewhat recurring problem since then. Did PT for it, which didn't do much, and for the past two years or so it hasn't been too much of a problem.
    Now it's returned just about as bad as it's ever been. Almost two weeks now and I'm still not back to 'normal'--hockey brought it on this time, but in the past even tying my shoes has caused an episode.

    What to do? What to expect? How does this play out? I'll be seeing an ortho before long, but just wanted to know if anyone has had similar (bad) experiences.

    This sucks, BTW.
    [quote][//quote]

  2. #2
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    Thanks for the help, bitches!!!
    Flyin' high on percocet again, I don't kneed this fucking gimp centrall...
    [quote][//quote]

  3. #3
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    This has been written on in one form or another a fair bit. ie: search function bitch!

    Regardless, you say hockey brought it on but I seldom find the activity of the moment is really the cause. Typically a summer of cycling will cause muscle imbalances and shortening and things like squash or skiing or pulling on socks will be the activity at the moment when it goes. Skiing and bending over screwing with boots while bootfitting was a real sure thing.

    Stretching and core training to keep everything in balance is the key. Of course when things feel good it's easy to give up the regimen and eventually it catches up again.
    It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy

  4. #4
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    You try searching for l3 or 4@!

    Ok, I will....
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  5. #5
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    Well,here´s a story a bit closer from the butt.Location wise.But the same kind of things apply for that one too.

    http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54664


    Sorry for hearing that,Dex. I feel for you.
    Those back thingys are a super bithc.Super,super bitch.



    But in this acute phase, there are next to nil you can do but to enjoy the ride.
    Massage,acu,stereoid injections,painkillers they just help a bit.
    Streching and working out hard just makes it worse at that stage.

    If you get to the normal phase, the routine of PT,workout,core strength training,massage and streching can make a difference. But you´ll have to do very long term and specific training for core.strength. Hitting the gym for 4 times a week without a strict regimen will only fuck you up. I know that...

    The last option is a surgery, with you should definately consider if you start to have nervous pindown : Ischias, numbness,dropped foot let alone problems with bladder/pooper. Especially the dropped foot syndrome (you feel like your foot is made of rubber and you are not in controll of it) is difficult to heal after it has developed, even if you are operated. But for the surgery route,check that post.
    It really was a life saver for me. I´m soooo stoked i went/had to go that route. Obviously the future is still open, but i´m optimistic at least..

    The floggings will continue until morale improves.

  6. #6
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    Some general ramblings, with the caveat that they may or may not have any general validity and same re: application to you.

    Virtually all adults have some torn or deteriorated discs. The ones with back pain get them diagnosed. Why some people have back pain and not others is a multi-billion $ question, but in addition to general fitness and activity level specific postural muscle fitness and spine stability versus mobility have a very big impact. Surgery works wonders for some people, but there seems to be a big placebo effect at work too, and a significant number of people end up worse following surgery, often leading to a cycle of failed interventions. Stuart McGill at University of Waterloo has some good papers on the web imo that have good general cites to a lot of this stuff as it relates to athletics.

    How does this relate to you? I'd try a cycle of situps, front and side-plank thingys, and deadlifts with proper form. You'll probably be surprised how weak your back, side and ab muscles actually are. Powerlifters, despite the huge loads they subject their backs too, generally don't have much back pain for a reason. Dave Tate has a website with a powerlifting focus, can't remember the address, that although somewhat offputting has some good stuff on this as well as a Q&A forum with good responses.

    For PT, make certain you get a serious, focused PT clinic and therapist.

    Also, think about your general posture while at work, 10 hours a day +/- can have a huge impact in terms of what your back is feeling.

  7. #7
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    Thanks, sorry for yelling at you guys. Good stuff to know here, will be off to an ortho as soon as my new insurance comes through. Lotsa pain, though, and add to that general grogginess from the pain meds...forgot what it was like.

    Sucks, sucks, sucks, but thanks again for the info.

    never thought too much about posture, not even sure what I'm supposed to be doing/not doing. Guess PT will help me with that (but it didn't last time, as far as I remember).
    [quote][//quote]

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki
    Thanks, sorry for yelling at you guys.
    I put it off to percocet. I'd have put a winky face on my bitches but I hate those things. Depends on your ortho but I would strongly suggest pursueing PT or an athletic therapists before jumping to a surgical solution.

    I had my best luck with a chiro and eventually found a very good one with athletic therapist background. Like you physio did little for my posture and ate up a lot of time (home stretching and strengthening). The chiro got me aligned so posture was then much easier to achieve and maintain and muscle balance was easier to come by and more effective at controlling posture etc. It's a bit of a viscious cycle and breaking the cycle somewhere is the key, the work still needs to be done.

    Some of this is a rehash of meathelmets point and his point of acute phase is key because until it starts to loosen nothing is really going to help.
    It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy

  9. #9
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    "A torn disc"...if that was the dignosis, you were going to a witch doctor.
    There ain't no such thing, or it was very loose language. There is a "ruptured disc", meaning that disc material has extruded out of the annulus. There are also "bulging" discs, which means that the disc material is protruding, but has not gone out of the annulus. "Partially torn" could mean a protrusion as opposed to a herniation.

    Same with "L3 or L4". Is the problem at L2/3 or L3/4?

    Now, as for what you can expect. Has an MRI been done? W/o that the diagnosis is questionable. Was one done 10 years ago? Is the pain localized to the back? Is it one sided or bi-lateral? Does it radiate into the butt, or lower? If so, where? Any numbness or tingling?
    Last edited by irul&ublo; 06-14-2006 at 04:04 PM.
    Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon.
    Mundo paparazzi mi amore cicce verdi parasol.
    Questo abrigado tantamucho que canite carousel.


  10. #10
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    Yeah, I need to lay off posting when I'm flying high on percocet air. Today's been a little better than yesterday, but the day before that was also good and then I got crushed yesterday.

    The doc is the chief of physiatry at Hospital for Special Surgery, so I tend to believe what he says, and his term was partially torn disc. Since he used the term 'torn' I assume it's a tear, so a slight rupture or herniation. This was all based on his examination of me 10 years ago, haven't seen anyone except the PT since, no MRI or any other diagnostic. The pain is always in the spine around L3 or 4, and if it's bad for any extended period (as now) radiates to both iliac crests.
    No numbness or tingling, except for that fun tingle I get when the Yankees lose four in a row (was at the game last night, good game despite the Yankee win--pretty uncomfortable sitting there, though), and the numbness I felt when I saw that grand slam in Minnesota.
    [quote][//quote]

  11. #11
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    Forgot, here's a great resource for almost every orthopeadic condition you don't want to have:

    http://www.hss.edu/Conditions
    [quote][//quote]

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki
    never thought too much about posture, not even sure what I'm supposed to be doing/not doing. Guess PT will help me with that (but it didn't last time, as far as I remember).
    Actually, by mentioning posture as a general concept, not just posture at work but also posture athletically, youre stating a better overall question. For work, assuming you work a desk job Id say simply dont slouch with a rounded back. Think of yourself as a Marine Corps recruiting sergeant. Same with standing...for me, at least, keeping good posture though requires periodic checking and is easier said than done.

    Athletically you have not just static postures but dynamic movement patterns to deal with, for everything from picking up a suitcase to skiing or hockey. And there I think you really need to just work with your PT and doc in combination in terms of where you are posture & movement-wise and where they'd like to groove something different.

  13. #13
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    go to a reputable chiropractor (in such a thing exists) and have them adjust things for you. then do whatever stretching exercises they reccomend every single day without fail and you will feel better.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctarmchair
    Think of yourself as a Marine Corps recruiting sergeant. Same with standing...for me, at least, keeping good posture though requires periodic checking and is easier said than done.

    Lot of wisdom there.
    Other good things to check is your carseat (most of them are infernal) and you office chair (wich usually are abysmal.At best). And you can easily spend 8-14hours on them each day.
    Add to that a crappy,too soft bed,sleep on your back and collect the reward.




    And for powder 11s advice, i have to disagree nowadays. A bit. Sorry.

    From my experience the chiropractors,the extremely good ones that is, can do a difference for a while if you are prone to "locking up" after hard training regimes.At least they make you feel better for 2 weeks
    But for a long term solution, a better solution to that might be getting massaged properly by a sport physian regulary after hard training sessions 1-2 times a week,GETTING A PROPER WORKOUT FOR THE PROBLEM and checking out your diet a bit.I mean, getting hydrated after training and stuff.Really,really basics stuff.

    And when you are on the acute phase, i cant dexter say this strong enough...
    Leave.Your.Back.Alone.
    It is allready farked now.
    There is very little you can do now. Weather it out,chill,get a NSAID recipie for two-three weeks and then check things out.

    Allso, get a MRI.

    That itself aint a lifesaver now,but it is a good thing if your insurances allow it.
    That pain migh be from different place now than it was a decade ago. It might be a disc or two lower.
    The MRI itself doesnt change anything.It doesnt make you better, it doesnt make the chiropractors find that magic spot that makes you all good again.
    Instead it will find out on what level it is, what treatment you might demand for your self if things get worse and possiby detect early enough if you have fragmented discs.
    But, as you described,your sound like it might be at the L4-L5 or L3-L4 as they usually give you pain,but doesnt give you (neccessary) IA,sciatica,SI pain (wich is apparently rare).
    Or then not.
    Or.
    Just get the doc and MRI so you know.After that you can concentrate on you recuparating or you rehabilitation.Otherwise everything is just guesswork.
    No doc, be it DocHolliday or what ever knows the situation befoe MRI.Not even a xray will do.But good ones can make good guesses.Nothing else.



    Aww,sorry for the rambling.
    I can just feel for your pain,man! [/hippy voice]

    Hopefully the worst will go away in few days...

    The floggings will continue until morale improves.

  15. #15
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    Again, thanks.
    Never had an MRI because the last time the pain was this severe it went away after a few weeks of leaving it alone. I'm hoping I'm getting to the end of the really difficult part now--today wasn't too bad, once I started moving around. And I haven't been back to a doc since because the flare ups weren't that bad and fairly infrequent--it's been probably two years since I had substantial pain, and when I did before a few days rest 'solved' it.
    Will definitely be back to the doc and getting an MRI before long.
    Hopefully, though, I'm getting to the end of the pain this time and you won't hear me bitching again...

    Oh, and the chiropractor thing: I've long held some of what chiropractors seem to believe as a group against them, and would never have considered going to one (the idea that they can realign magical energy fields in your body, etc.). But I have heard, even from some medical authorities, that some of what they do can be useful. I'm not sure they could help me, but at this point I wouldn't say it's out of the question.
    On a related note, I've also discovered that there's medical support for there being some benefits to acupuncture (beyond the placebo effect), another healing process I never believed in before. Apparently some accupuncture stimulates endorphin production which can relieve pain.
    [quote][//quote]

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki
    Oh, and the chiropractor thing: I've long held some of what chiropractors seem to believe as a group against them, and would never have considered going to one (the idea that they can realign magical energy fields in your body, etc.). But I have heard, even from some medical authorities, that some of what they do can be useful. I'm not sure they could help me, but at this point I wouldn't say it's out of the question.
    On a related note, I've also discovered that there's medical support for there being some benefits to acupuncture (beyond the placebo effect), another healing process I never believed in before. Apparently some accupuncture stimulates endorphin production which can relieve pain.


    Yea, as said, chiros can help to the symptoms in the early stages. I used to go to chiros 1-2 times a month in the last 3 years. Helped out with the "stiff" back feeling. Now looking back,i just feel that i could have done things differently.
    The chiro was a bit of "lazy" approach, because i ended up training in a fashion that wasnt the best for me. Big weights,long reps and most of all not core-muscle specific enough.The other approach might have been better.


    And about acupuncture,there is a page about that in the first page. But in short, yeah, it helped a bit in the pain management for me, but it sure as hell can´t do miracles. I was expecting it to do...
    But it might be a good route to relax your back muscles, instead of massage or chiro.Especially when you have this acute phase.

    I am planning to hit a acupuncturist more often,because i noticed that it really relaxed my backmuscles AND it got my juices flowing..emm...i mean it increased my metabolism.Drank and peed like a horse afterwards. So that could be quite a good compliment to other workouts/bodycare.


    One thing to consider for your acute pain might be getting stereoid shots for it. BUT ONLY IF THEY ARE ADMINISTRED ASSISTED WITH ULTRASOUND.
    The blind shots where physiatrist administer stuff with only their jedi-force are not only ineffective but plain dangerous (damage the nerves).
    But if you can get a hold on a physiatrist that does them with a ultra (it shows them exactly where to inject the cortisone) it gives you a good relief for pain for 1-3 weeks. And they cost around 90-120€s.
    Helped me when i was crawling around.I literally crawled into the taxi,got to the appointment,was out after 15mins (100€s poorer...) and walked to the taxi.
    Just a thought if you are in bad pain and want some instant relief..

    The floggings will continue until morale improves.

  17. #17
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    Whoa. Posted this:http://tetongravity.com/forums/showt...757#post815757

    Then saw your thread, Dex.

    I just got my lumbar [4/5 area] and thoracic spine shot with prolotherapy today.
    The lumbar issues are new, kinda.
    But it's affecting my hip.

    Core, core, core is the cure.

    Other recommend: Find an orthobionomist www.orthobionomy.com Ask AKA about it. I'll swear by it.

    Irul nailed some terrific specifics in peodspeak(who better than a lawyer? ), but without undergoing costly allopathic treatment, ctarmchair said a mouth full:
    Quote Originally Posted by ctarmchair
    Also, think about your general posture while at work, 10 hours a day +/- can have a huge impact in terms of what your back is feeling.
    I'm doing pelvic tilts and holding them and really noticing the difference. Sitting, standing, or laying down.
    This is kinda where I was going with my post.

  18. #18
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    I hope your can find a solution for your back problem. If it keeps you from skiing or riding, you should check in to the skibike (aka. skibob or snowbike). Many people with injuries who were unable to continue riding or skiing have been saved by the skibike. The advantages of being able to sit down and have that tension taken up by the bike frame rather than one's legs and lower back are obvious. Good luck!

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