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  1. #26
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    Originally posted by CantDog
    For AT boots and downhill boots to release the same you would have to have the same toe piece. Which would mean no Vibram, or a way to somehow counteract the increased coeff. of friction between the vibram and the AFP.
    Wonder how temp affects the vibram sole? SummitCo, assume the test was at room temp?

    I just raise the toe for alpine (Sally) and shut the thinker off.

    It’s so quiet, it’s so cool, it’s so cold

  2. #27
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    I have Vibram on my Richlee F1's they are almost identical height to normal toes and I haven't had problems in any binders......but my Lowa Strukas that have quite a lot of rocker work in Sallys with adjustable toe height and my Looks? without problems (and Freerides of course).....but Sally fixed height toes and low end Tyrolias pre relase rather than release high or not releasing, but this probably due to overstressing the toe piece.....they don't fit to well on old Markers (M48 racing).

  3. #28
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    Test was at room temp in all respects.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit
    Twisting release (toe) varied wildly ranging from 5.5 to 12 until I messed with the the toe height some more. Then I was able to get somewhat consistent release (-0.5 to +1 DIN) on one side, BUT no matter what I did the other side would release up to 4 DIN different. (if only it had a moving AFD)

    Conclusions:
    It would seem to me that for a binding to work with AT boots it has to have adjustable toe height AND a moving AFD (like the Freeride and the Naxo have).
    Why then did Fritschi get rid of the moving AFD when it went from the grey models to the current white ones??

    I wonder if the new Fritschis test properly for toe release?
    . . .

  5. #30
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    ........

    maybe somekind of fitted solid cap...over the toe lug, shaped ala alpine toe-lug style. There must be room for a small screw to fasten on each side....
    ...maybe-not

  6. #31
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    any possibility to test out the vibrams with the new sollys with the moveable afd?

  7. #32
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    i might be able to talk the ole shop into letting me use the machine... if i can even get ap air of skis with those binders
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit
    i might be able to talk the ole shop into letting me use the
    machine... if i can even get ap air of skis with those binders
    You guys have been working on this for a while now, and no one's brought
    this up other than tangentially: The difference is not just the presence
    of Vibram on the AT boot. AT boots and alpine boots have a different toe
    configuration; the former all have boot rocker while the latter, designed
    to the DIN standard, do not.

    Thus, all AT bindings that I've looked at are designed to accommodate both
    boot rocker and Vibram-style materials in the toe area; alpine bindings
    weren't designed to handle either.

    One other thing: AT bindings have release technology that's coincides with
    the alpine release technology ca. 1976.

    I'm not an expert on this matter, but it seems to me that if you're
    interested in minimizing risks from boots/bindings, ski a dedicated alpine
    setup in-area, and save your AT setup for the backcountry.

    cheers,
    john

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrredho
    One other thing: AT bindings have release technology that's coincides with the alpine release technology ca. 1976.
    True (and I agree with your points about AT boots in downhill bindings), but ... my understanding of analysis by Vermont Safety Research is that ever since the entire skiing public finally ditched bindings that predated the late 70s or early 80s, ski injury rates have not changed despite impressive engineering advances in binding technology. (In other words, the epidemiological evidence suggests that "safer" bindings have unfortunately not increased skier safety with regard to lower-leg injuries.)
    Also, here's their 1999 summary of what constitutes an obsolete binding:
    http://www.vermontskisafety.com/faq_...q_skier_5.html
    Would be very interesting to have them qualitatively evaluate and quantitatively test AT boot-binding systems.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan S.
    True (and I agree with your points about AT boots in downhill bindings), but ... my understanding of analysis by Vermont Safety Research is that ever since the entire skiing public finally ditched bindings that predated the late 70s or early 80s, ski injury rates have not changed despite impressive engineering advances in binding technology. (In other words, the epidemiological evidence suggests that "safer" bindings have unfortunately not increased skier safety with regard to lower-leg injuries.)
    Also, here's their 1999 summary of what constitutes an obsolete binding:
    http://www.vermontskisafety.com/faq_...q_skier_5.html
    Would be very interesting to have them qualitatively evaluate and quantitatively test AT boot-binding systems.
    But, haven't the type of injuries changed? I seem to recall something about a decrease in fractures, but an increase in knee injuries.
    Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan S.
    my understanding of analysis by Vermont Safety
    Research is that ever since the entire skiing public finally ditched
    bindings that predated the late 70s or early 80s, ski injury rates have
    not changed despite impressive engineering advances in binding technology.
    That website has some pretty cool info. Thanks.

    Also, I don't know how to interpret the ski injury rate thing. There was
    a time when I recall that particular group calling for a change in
    philosophy in boot design, which I don't think was heeded, so maybe
    that is a partial explanation.

    I went through this whole process when I first bought AT gear for my
    daughter. I was hoping to be able to get by with only one setup for the
    obvious cost savings, but eventually came to the conclusion that it
    was best to just bite the bullet and get her two complete setups.

    I did the same for my gf. I just wanted to minimize the risks; not
    eliminate them entirely...

    cheers,
    john

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by irul&ublo
    But, haven't the type of injuries changed? I seem to recall something about a decrease in fractures, but an increase in knee injuries.
    Correct, although unrelated: at the same time that binding design was advancing to prevent lower-leg fractures, boot design and also easier-turning (by the standards of the day...) skis put knees at greater risk, against which better binding designs were unfortunately almost helpless.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrredho
    There was
    a time when I recall that particular group calling for a change in
    philosophy in boot design, which I don't think was heeded, so maybe
    that is a partial explanation.
    The NCAA varsity ski team I was coaching back then tested the Lange ski boot that was inspired in large part by their design. (Such opportunities arise when your team's faculty advisor is an aero/astro prof, a trained astronaut, and the former director of the International Society for Skiing Safety - too bad we were still pathetically slow as racers.) Unfortunately, the main conclusions were: 1) racers don't like skiing in a recreational boot; and, 2) the constant rear cuff prereleases were annoying. The boot was quickly discontinued. (I still have the special wrench though and it's perfect for removal/installation of bike water bottle brackets, which I think is that boot’s only lasting legacy.)

  13. #38
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    I love that this thread is over 2.5 years old.

    jrredho I see your point. I doubt that AT bindings + AT boots are ultimately as safe as alpine in alpine. However, if an AT boot in an "alpine" binding passes the safety tests that an alpine boot in an alpine binding has to pass... well isn't that good enough to use?

    How many people here even get their alpine bindings tested anyway much less their AT bindings...
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  14. #39
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    I didn't reread this whole thread but it seems to me there are two separate issues.

    One being AT boots in alpine bindings, which seems to present a significant decrease in release consistency and thus safety. But is done all the time anyway with very few problems for users who know what they area doing.

    And the other being Alpine boots in AT bindings (non Dynafit, duh!), which, in my experience, can test out just fine.

    In other words, I'm not sure you have to buy your daughter of GF or anyone two complete setups just for safety sake. Sure if you want a DIN to 14 or for other performance reasons but I don't see a good reason why a lighter person can't use Fritschis on their every day skis and switch boots if they want to. There are lots of good reason to have multiple pair of skis but I'm not sure safety is one of them

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sar13
    In other words, I'm not sure you have to buy your daughter of
    GF or anyone two complete setups just for safety sake.
    I wasn't sure either, which is why this point is moot for us: I did get
    them both separate setups. My reasoning, however flawed it might be,
    relates to my point about the release technology that is present in AT
    bindings more than the ability to accommodate the boot. Btw, I think
    you're right about that part, but, again, I am not only not an expert, I'm
    not even qualified to give an opinion on this whole matter!...

    cheers,
    john

  16. #41
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    ive used denalis in looks, solly, and gasp... Marker(but only a few times on a friends skis)... for three years now with no pre release(maybe a few but whose counting) or non release issues, and have no clue what the big deal is about(yes i read and understand the entire thread). No shop will mount bindings to them even if i sign away my life. I think people need to chill and just go ski. AT boots are fine in alpine binders no matter what anyone says IMVHO

  17. #42
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    Odds are good that the ones saying "go for it" are teens or 20-somethings with fresh knees and limited experience in the joys of rehab.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit
    Test was at room temp in all respects.
    You dont ski and room temps, so room temperature tests are not exactly all that relaible, since the properties of the types of plastics / rubber used in ski bindings / boots can change DRASTICALLY as the temperature is lowered / raised.
    The Ski Journal theskijournal.com
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbakerskier
    You dont ski and room temps, so room temperature tests are not exactly all that relaible, since the properties of the types of plastics / rubber used in ski bindings / boots can change DRASTICALLY as the temperature is lowered / raised.
    true.
    but when testing for something like this id rather be on the conservative side.

    plus there is reality. How realistic is it to setup an artificial environment inside a ski shop. I suppose you could just temp soak each ski outside in the snow before you test it, but even then there are variables, perhaps even moreso..

    also since it was the same boot used, it would stand to say that the improvement in release\repeatability would increase by the same amount for each binding being that all the afds are made from a very similar, if not the same material.

    edit
    theres also unaccounted for factors which could also drastically change the release characteristics such as ice, frost, and water.
    ive got no idea how to make a test that accounts all of that accurately.
    not to mention gravel\scree peices stuck between the lugs.
    Last edited by pechelman; 09-11-2006 at 04:32 PM.

  20. #45
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    testing to see if a binding is performing within limits is performed inside... you ski outside... I presume that the binding companies and the testing machine companies took this into account when they designed the testing parameters and procedures (otherwise their shit wouldn't stand up very well in court)

    that goes for AT bindings as well...

    I could be wrong but I would be surprised if they didn't
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrredho
    The difference is not just the presence
    of Vibram on the AT boot. AT boots and alpine boots have a different toe
    configuration; the former all have boot rocker while the latter, designed
    to the DIN standard, do not.

    Thus, all AT bindings that I've looked at are designed to accommodate both
    boot rocker and Vibram-style materials in the toe area; alpine bindings
    weren't designed to handle either.
    just off the top of the old noggin', if the afd is the same distance from the toe on the AT binding as it is on the new solly 914, there would be no difference in releasability for vibram soles in either (the afds of the new solly 914 and the freeride look almost identical). even in the 914's favor would be the fact that the wings are adjustable and would be able to more closely couple (heh) with the toe of the boot, no?

    i guess what i'm saying is that if the above is true, than AT boots would release more safely out of the new 914 than it would out of a fritchi. ???

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit
    testing to see if a binding is performing within limits is performed inside... you ski outside... I presume that the binding companies and the testing machine companies took this into account when they designed the testing parameters and procedures (otherwise their shit wouldn't stand up very well in court)

    that goes for AT bindings as well...

    I could be wrong but I would be surprised if they didn't

    The problem is that the chareterisitcs of the vibram sole change a hell of a lot more with temp then the plastic soles of alpine boots, so you really cant comapre the two at room temp and epect them to behave the same at colder temps.
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  23. #48
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    MBS: you make an excellent point. perhaps I can use pechelman's temp soak idea if I do further testing.

    Vibram becomes stiffer and slicker when it gets cold, yes? Slicker would enhance releasability I think. I'd speculate that stiffer could possibly create problems with the auto toe height...
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Dog
    True, but AT boots are so close that they appear to fit. If they're not meant for alpine gear then they shouldn't fit at all. That's just good engineering.
    An alpine boot with DIN sole that is worn down will fit into a binding, but it will not function properly. Just because soemthing is close enought to fit, it doesn't mean it will work correctly. THE DIN standards are very precise, and the truth is something like 1mm of difference will make a big impact on the performance of the boot/binding system.
    "There is a hell of a huge difference between skiing as a sport- or even as a lifestyle- and skiing as an industry"
    Hunter S. Thompson, 1970 (RIP)

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit
    MBS: you make an excellent point. perhaps I can use pechelman's temp soak idea if I do further testing.

    Vibram becomes stiffer and slicker when it gets cold, yes? Slicker would enhance releasability I think. I'd speculate that stiffer could possibly create problems with the auto toe height...
    Temperature decreases rubber\plastic's viscosity and increases the durometer. In plain english, they get harder. Since they get harder, the coefficient of friction for their interface will also decrease.

    Cold soaking outside in snow as mentioned would introduce additional variables to the testing, primarially water which would also help to lubricate the slip surfaces of the boot sole and AFD.

    Just something to keep in mind.

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