Wasatch 22/23 - Gondolas, grooming highboy, and other comical anecdotes

[Duffman]

What’s the use case for making the buses fly? It’s sexy? It’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever witnessed which is why it makes it so incredible that it made it through an EIS process to the collective eye roll and disbelief of the entire Wasatch and beyond. And I like gondolas and trams! I fucking love them – like the one at Telluride to get into town – cool as shit. This isn’t that.

Nailed it here. It's a tourist trappy thing to attract Olympics and other such events and people, while eventually leading to major development of a "resort" at the base of the gondi.

Like you said , the role for a gondola over road widening / snow sheds / and a constant stream of busses makes little to no sense, especially if it is true that it would not run during interlodge type situations. In all honestly, a gondola up Grizzly -Twin Lakes Pass to Sol/Bright or one up Guardsman to PC makes a hell of a lot more logical sense. I'm not advocating for this personally, but enhanced continuous shuttle bus service with gondis connecting the canyons at the mouths makes way more sense in terms of moving people and increasing skier visits (the goal of the resorts if not us) The "flying bus" seems to lack all logic, unless you are a developer who owns land in Cottonwood Heights and Sandy .


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[bigdude2468]

How many additional busses & drivers are going to be needed if through tolling they can reduce LCC traffic by 50% or 75%?

[Core Shot]

Gondi ain’t happening. No need for bunching panties.

Good news is snowsheds. And bus lanes. That works and is way more affordable

Build the parking garage. Run the busses. Done.

One billion dollars? What the holy fuck. If that ever happens I’d be pissed. And I’m not an Utah taxpayer. Although if it ever happens it would be federally funded. Fucking morons. Start making sense.

[Touring_Sedan]

Gondi ain’t happening. No need for bunching panties.

Good news is snowsheds. And bus lanes. That works and is way more affordable

Build the parking garage. Run the busses. Done.

One billion dollars? What the holy fuck. If that ever happens I’d be pissed. And I’m not an Utah taxpayer. Although if it ever happens it would be federally funded. Fucking morons. Start making sense.

Clearly said by someone who hasn't witnessed a multitude of multi million dollar projects born on the backs of Utah taxpayers solely because they benefit our property developer laden legislature.

See:
Point of the Mountain
Rio Grande
Inland Port

[bigdude2468]

Gondi ain’t happening. No need for bunching panties.

Good news is snowsheds. And bus lanes. That works and is way more affordable

Build the parking garage. Run the busses. Done.

One billion dollars? What the holy fuck. If that ever happens I’d be pissed. And I’m not an Utah taxpayer. Although if it ever happens it would be federally funded. Fucking morons. Start making sense.

Salt Lake County Mayor says Gondola is 25 years away.

Wilson said the phased approach backed by the Utah Department of Transportation offered room for the region to pursue “commonsense solutions” before any construction can begin.

“The gondola is, at minimum, as listed, 25 years away,” Wilson told reporters in her office Wednesday. “We have 25 years, people — those of us who care deeply about the canyon — to prove that busing will work.”

[DigSki]

Salt Lake County Mayor says Gondola is 25 years away.

Wilson said the phased approach backed by the Utah Department of Transportation offered room for the region to pursue “commonsense solutions” before any construction can begin.

“The gondola is, at minimum, as listed, 25 years away,” Wilson told reporters in her office Wednesday. “We have 25 years, people — those of us who care deeply about the canyon — to prove that busing will work.”

Busing will work if they actually run a bus system that works decently well, but we can't prove it works on our own. Pre-covid I rode it every day and as long as you got on early it was fantastic. The schedule now is such a joke they probably shouldn't even bother with it. Ideal case it moves, what, 160 people up canyon per hour? That's with every bus butts to nuts and running on time, which I doubt ever happened this past season.

I'm pretty convinced most of this "problem" more or less goes away if they:
1. checked tires, both at the mouth and exiting parking lots
2. had a decent bus system. Run a bus every 5 minutes during peak hours.

if you really want to get fancy
1. Throw some snowsheds up in LCC (they should probably do this for safety anyway, but that's not the problem they're trying to solve afaik)
2. Figure out how to do some two way taper sections on the existing roads so buses can travel in the left hand lane. Given how light downhill traffic is in the mornings, you'd probably only need like 4 and nobody would be super inconvenienced.

[bigdude2468]

Busing will work if they actually run a bus system that works decently well, but we can't prove it works on our own. Pre-covid I rode it every day and as long as you got on early it was fantastic. The schedule now is such a joke they probably shouldn't even bother with it. Ideal case it moves, what, 160 people up canyon per hour? That's with every bus butts to nuts and running on time, which I doubt ever happened this past season.

I'm pretty convinced most of this "problem" more or less goes away if they:
1. checked tires, both at the mouth and exiting parking lots
2. had a decent bus system. Run a bus every 5 minutes during peak hours.

if you really want to get fancy
1. Throw some snowsheds up in LCC (they should probably do this for safety anyway, but that's not the problem they're trying to solve afaik)
2. Figure out how to do some two way taper sections on the existing roads so buses can travel in the left hand lane. Given how light downhill traffic is in the mornings, you'd probably only need like 4 and nobody would be super inconvenienced.

Buses were every 30 minutes last year, four per hour, are you saying 40 people is about max capacity of the current "larger" buses? If you are then every five minutes is 12 buses per hour X 40 = 480, that wont cut it.

[brutah]

Salt Lake County Mayor says Gondola is 25 years away.

Wilson said the phased approach backed by the Utah Department of Transportation offered room for the region to pursue “commonsense solutions” before any construction can begin.

“The gondola is, at minimum, as listed, 25 years away,” Wilson told reporters in her office Wednesday. “We have 25 years, people — those of us who care deeply about the canyon — to prove that busing will work.”

isn't the SLC mayor married to a developer?

SLC will host the Olympics in 2034. Gondi will be done by then so they can have events at snowbird.

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[Dantheman]

Speaking of buses – there’s already a really good way to get buses up and down that canyon – it’s called the road. Build snowsheds (oh that’s part of the gondi plan? WTF?). Toll the shit out of the road (oh that’s part of the Gondi plan? Wtf?) or close the road altogether except to permitted users (ala Zion, Maroon Bells) then build lots of parking at the base (oh that’s part of the Gondi plan?) then shuttle bus the shit out of both canyons. If you really drive cars out of the canyons - the shuttle bus option is about as good as it can get, and what two problems solved without an obscene expenditure of money?

What’s the use case for making the buses fly? It’s sexy? It’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever witnessed which is why it makes it so incredible that it made it through an EIS process to the collective eye roll and disbelief of the entire Wasatch and beyond. And I like gondolas and trams! I fucking love them – like the one at Telluride to get into town – cool as shit. This isn’t that.

To be fair, buses also cost a lot of public money and the gondi would be a smoother, albeit slower, ride than a bus. The big difference is that buses aren't a giant eyesore from miles around and people don't get on the bus right at the mouth of the canyon where the worst congestion is.

Snow sheds will also be quite obtrusive. If the choice was sheds or the gondi I might actually lean towards the gondi. But, if we're getting sheds regardless the gondi can fuck right off.

Funny you should mention the Telluride mountain village gondola. I've said before that if this was going to be a supersize version of the Telluride gondi (free, year round, plenty of capacity, faster and easier than driving) I'd be on board. But it's definitely not going to be that.

Buses were every 30 minutes last year, four per hour, are you saying 40 people is about max capacity of the current "larger" buses?

There was no 953 route last year, so only two buses per hour. Even with the crappy service I never had a problem getting up if I grabbed the 10:10 bus. Getting down was awful if you skied until 4:00, but tolerable if called it by 3:00 or apres'ed for a while.

[Benneke10]

snowsheds are no big deal visually if done right, here's Rogers Pass

[DigSki]

Buses were every 30 minutes last year, four per hour, are you saying 40 people is about max capacity of the current "larger" buses? If you are then every five minutes is 12 buses per hour X 40 = 480, that wont cut it.

Try that math again, every 30 minutes is two per hour. 80 people per bus is my estimate. So running every 5 minutes that's 960 people per hour, which would take a LOT of cars off the road (~400 less cars / hour? I think I saw somewhere the average car going up BCC had 2.5 people).

[muted reborn]

isn't the SLC mayor married to a developer?

SLC will host the Olympics in 2034. Gondi will be done by then so they can have events at snowbird.

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Are you getting the city and county mayor mixed up? Since the county mayor is opposed to the gondola - are you talking about Erin's ex husband or new husband?

[muted reborn]

snowsheds are no big deal visually if done right, here's Rogers Pass

yeah the safety they provide to workers (and the public) and the cleanup they avoid is huge and IMO they look fine, there will only be 3 of them. Dan, are you slowly aging into the mentality of the Save the Foothills crowd?

[Dantheman]

Dan, are you slowly aging into the mentality of the Save the Foothills crowd?

Um, no, I don't find barely visible trails offensive. Fuck those guys.

[EWG]

snowsheds are no big deal visually if done right, here's Rogers Pass

No kidding. Less impactful than roads. And they actually can be designed to allow wildlife to safely cross over the road.

[Dantheman]

That does look a lot better than UDOT's renderings.

[muted reborn]

Um, no, I don't find barely visible trails offensive. Fuck those guys.

It was a cheap shot on my part, ha, just joking.

[telefreewasatch]

Haven't posted much about the LCC gondola of late.
Wrote a paper as a freshman at the U in '76 about the benefits.
Feel much the same nearly a half century later.
If done properly I feel that it would be a benefit to public safety, red snakes, public health, and travel time.
Where the f do people piss and shit when they are stuck on the highway for up to 3-4 hours.
Everybody carrying a piss and shit bottle?
We are in a watershed after all.
The idling of all those vehicles for all that time?
How many folks say "This sucks, we'll never return."
International airport, world class skiing, third world delivery.

Problem is they got the cart before the horse infrastructure wise.
1) Haven't secured 1/15th of the parking needed by 6200 S and the freeway.
Everybody's talking 'bout the gravel pit for parking; if necessary then yes by all means.
Better parking is 3100 E / 6200 S. Eminent domain on that end of the driving range on the N side of the intersection. Right off the freeway exits.
2) Make Wasatch Blvd 6 lanes including a mass transit one in each direction. Certainly room in the right of way there.
3) The gondola can run 24/7/365. No reason to put limits on the possibility.
4) Of course it can run when the highway is closed for avalanche hazard. That's it's main benefit.
5) Doppelmayr's lift can move 4500 people/hr. not the 1200 advertised. Towers and cable are capable of handling those many more cabins; all UDOT has to do is purchase them.
6) Tower heights portrayed by Save Our Funlands are not nearly accurate and lowering each year with new technology.

The road is still necessary for many reasons, and the necessary snowsheds are located in the right spots.

The LCC needs an alternative ingress / egress for many reason. Not gonna get into that here.
Wish that this gondola originated in Summit County where 30% of the LCC's 2wd bald tire traffic comes from.
It could hit the BCC on the way to the LCC.
Same length.
That's where all the hotels and eateries are for the out of state vacationers.
And if one believes in a warming planet, there won't be snow or the temps to make it in Summit County in ? years.
We really gonna ship those folks with their 2wd bald tire cars all the way around instead of a a 6-7 mile ski lift?
I've stood at county and community meetings spouting this stuff to no avail.
Will continue to promote. Gondola is emanating from the wrong place in my opinion.
Say we get the Olympics, the LCC lands a venue and the pressure for one is intense.
Why not run it from where the teams will be staying, Summit County?
They'd never have to fire up a vehicle.

One problem with my vision.
Salt Lake County is F.S. in the canyons.
Over the ridge in Summit, all the land is private. Wasatch County as well.
Why would Vail resorts install lifts to benefit the Cottonwoods?

Therein lies the conundrum to my brainchild.
Thoughts and positive contributions welcome.

[Dantheman]

How many folks say "This sucks, we'll never return."

Not enough?

I didn't say it wouldn't run while the road is closed due to hazard, I said it wouldn't run during control work. The EIS is very clear about this, and that there will be a post-control inspection period before it reopens.

Your brainchild sounds cool but would probably cost $10 billion, not that you could get the competing jurisdictions on board anyway.

[Duffman]

Wish that this gondola originated in Summit County where 30% of the LCC's 2wd bald tire traffic comes from.
It could hit the BCC on the way to the LCC.
Same length.
That's where all the hotels and eateries are for the out of state vacationers.
And if one believes in a warming planet, there won't be snow or the temps to make it in Summit County in ? years.
We really gonna ship those folks with their 2wd bald tire cars all the way around instead of a a 6-7 mile ski lift?
I've stood at county and community meetings spouting this stuff to no avail.
Will continue to promote. Gondola is emanating from the wrong place in my opinion.
Say we get the Olympics, the LCC lands a venue and the pressure for one is intense.
Why not run it from where the teams will be staying, Summit County?
They'd never have to fire up a vehicle.

Appreciate the details and long view perspective.

From a building the ski areas to attract more tourists and Olympic type events perspective , this idea seems to make so much more sense. I thought that 10-15 years ago when plans were mentioned for a gondola, it was likely going to be an interconnect route between the canyons like this. I totally understand what you are saying that with the various landholders and stakeholders in place now (VR dominating PC) there is far less likelyhood of it happening. But from a purely business perspective and transportation to where the hotels and non skiing attractions are, this just makes way more sense than the LCC gondola plan.


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[bigdude2468]

Try that math again, every 30 minutes is two per hour. 80 people per bus is my estimate. So running every 5 minutes that's 960 people per hour, which would take a LOT of cars off the road (~400 less cars / hour? I think I saw somewhere the average car going up BCC had 2.5 people).

Math is right, there were two bus routes last year (instead of three as in previous years) for a total of four per hour. I am not sure you can cram 80 people holding their skis and boards, maybe you are right but it seems high. 2.5 per car was the average pre covid in LCC. With paid parking and reservations it might be a little higher today. I have gotten rides and given rides in the last two years that did not occur before.

[DigSki]

Math is right, there were two bus routes last year (instead of three as in previous years) for a total of four per hour. I am not sure you can cram 80 people holding their skis and boards, maybe you are right but it seems high. 2.5 per car was the average pre covid in LCC. With paid parking and reservations it might be a little higher today. I have gotten rides and given rides in the last two years that did not occur before.

Ah, word, and weird, I was talking per canyon. I think 80 is tight but on pow days in the past it was super tight. 80 is 4 people across by 20 people deep, which seems reasonable. Even if its 60 per bus, at every 5 mins that’s like 300 cars / canyon / hour. That’s a lot.


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[Touring_Sedan]

Anyone here on the Ryobi plan? I need this gone. Works fine. Free.99

[wra]

I have a use for that. In Sugarhouse area.

[Touring_Sedan]

I have a use for that. In Sugarhouse area.

Sent you a PM.