Ask the experts

[VTskibum]

Yep, I have two pretty decent test loops that I use that loop back to lot for tinkering. Thx for feedback


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zion zig zag]

No, it's junk. Do some research on what setting does what, get a small notebook to record your settings, and keep doing bracketing.

I don't know, I think it gets you pretty close. There was one for sale on here a few months back so me and a few friends went in together and bought it. I felt like my suspension was pretty dialed, and when I ran the shockwiz it reflected that. It suggested a couple clicks one way or another and also suggested I drop down in volume spacers which I had been meaning to do anyway.

[jm2e]

Shockwiz? Worth owning for the many mountain bikes I have. Always relied on bracketing, but riding with some really fast enduro racers these days and think I need to start fiddling w/ marginal gains. On sale now and was going to throw on wife's x-mas list for me...

I liked using mine. Helped dial in psi and helped cure the constant wondering if I'd done enough fiddling. It also helps show you that there is not a perfect tune unless all you're doing is lapping the same short section of trail over and over again. So it reminds you that compromise is inevitable.

[Roxtar]

Racefaces wheels are garbage (well the hubs mostly), better hope it's the spanks. Can't even count how many raceface hubs we've warrantied in the shop.

Is that the new-ish Vault hubs? They look pretty robust and the design makes sense.

[Andeh]

So here's my issues with ShockWiz, compared to a data acquisition system that pros are using (Motion Instruments). If you read/listen to current suspension tuning theories, most of them basically boil down to getting your front and rear suspension balanced relative to each other, using an appropriate amount of travel for what's being ridden, enough compression damping to keep the bike stable, and fast enough rebound to recover between repetitive hits.

ShockWiz only works on air suspension. If you use coil or a multi-chamber air setup (like Manitou, Ohlins, EXT), you're out of luck.
ShockWiz gives you recommendations for changing one piece of your suspension without taking into consideration what the other end is doing. This can create all sorts of issues and sometimes feedback loops. If your fork is too soft and you're running ShockWiz on your shock, it will probably tell you that you need to reduce pressure in the shock because it thinks you're not using enough travel (since you're always pitching forward) - then you'll have poorly tuned suspension on both ends.
ShockWiz is very sensitive to the calibration portion of setup, and frequently it will give you different Compression Ration values each time. If you use the wrong CR, it will give you bad suggestions.
ShockWiz fundamentally is measuring just air pressure changes, and extrapolating that to linear travel of the fork/shock itself. Pro-grade systems use linear sensors to measure travel of the shock/fork, and also use the bike's head angle and leverage ratio curve to look at axle positions (front vs rear).

But my biggest critique of it is that because it gives specific instructions (open LSC, add volume token, etc.) people who use it tend to blindly follow the suggestions without thinking about what they were feeling on the bike and whether or not the change actually makes sense. Taking a bit of time to learn what the basic components of suspension do, and then spending some time experimenting with them is really incredibly helpful. This Cathro video is quite good: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-...episode-2.html

[El Chupacabra]

Is that the new-ish Vault hubs? They look pretty robust and the design makes sense.

The Vault rear hub looks pretty solid. No personal experience with that one though.

I had two of the earlier Trace hubs that came on the Aeffect wheelset. Those rear hubs were pretty bad. Teeny tiny pawl springs that broke on their own and RF doesn't sell replacements, and also very poor seals.

Front hubs are all pretty much fine no matter what the brand. It's the freehub assembly that causes trouble.

[toast2266]

Is that the new-ish Vault hubs? They look pretty robust and the design makes sense.

No idea about the current generation stuff, but I have a ~5 year old set of vault hubs that have been bomber. Bearings are still smooth, and freehub has been problem free. Those things have a few thousand miles on them, with plenty of mud, slop, and lift served abuse. Only complaint is that they're not the fastest rolling hubs, presumably because they have some extra seals in there.

[Roxtar]

No idea about the current generation stuff, but I have a ~5 year old set of vault hubs that have been bomber. Bearings are still smooth, and freehub has been problem free. Those things have a few thousand miles on them, with plenty of mud, slop, and lift served abuse. Only complaint is that they're not the fastest rolling hubs, presumably because they have some extra seals in there.

That's kind of what I thought. They seemed like a pretty good hub for the $.
Bamboocore may have been referring to older generation or lower end RF hubs

[bamboocoreONLY]

That's kind of what I thought. They seemed like a pretty good hub for the $.
Bamboocore may have been referring to older generation or lower end RF hubs

Nah, my vault hub cracked at the thru axle sleeve around where the freehub meets the hub body, and a customer also had the same issue. I'll admit I'm also more sour on them because fox is the slowest warranty to deal with ever as well haha

But yeah the main issue is those trace hubs, as they were used on all of our rocky mtn demo bikes, and all but one had to be sent in for warranty with a weird tolerance issue causing the freehub to move with your cranks instead of spinning freely.

[XtrPickels]

Re Shockwhiz, I had one and I think it's an interesting product for a sub-set of rider. They need to be interested enough to actually take the time to care about their suspension, but with basic enough knowledge that they do not understand how to change settings. The fact that it is a not factory-racer level equipment doesn't make it inherently bad.

That was me when I bought it and it helped me understand how or why I wanted to make changes (at least in a basic sense). It also helped me understand how different settings would make the global feel of the bike different (with their tuning guides for poppy, etc.)

Ultimately it was the gateway to consuming the Vorsprung videos and other resources that lead to a more in-depth knowledge. I eventually got rid of it as I learned how to experiment - but I will say I can't always feel changes that I'm making when I'm turning knobs.

I do agree, however, that getting a correct compression ratio is essential and you have to take care and verify that the number is repeatable before using it for adjusting your set up.

I do think that they could improve the product by running 2 at the same time and logging / analyzing in the app to get a more holistic view.

[Iowagriz]

Shopping for XC full susp.; coming from 12yr racing a Ti hardtail with Fox 32 100mm. Had been keeping with Santa Cruz Blur, Pivot Mach 4 and Spec Epic EVO - all in the 120/120 or 120/110 (new Pivot).

Old model Mach 4s are on sale and dropping. 100 on the rear of these, vs the new frame of 106/115 (flip chip rear).
Of course they are tempting me with the xt/xtr, fox 32 100/100 version of the old model at $4500 ($5300 with carbon wheelset). Fox 34, 120/100 version is $4875/$5750 (carbon wheelset).

I'm 58 and still xc oriented towards big rides and not much for air. I'll pound the singletrack down and max out my current fox 32 in braking bumps, but rarely feel limited by the front travel, just the hardtail end.

My question is if I'd really miss out on the 120 in the front vs the 100? Remembering the rear on this old model is the same either route (100).

Competitive Cyclist if you are wondering where.

[toast2266]

Shopping for XC full susp.; coming from 12yr racing a Ti hardtail with Fox 32 100mm. Had been keeping with Santa Cruz Blur, Pivot Mach 4 and Spec Epic EVO - all in the 120/120 or 120/110 (new Pivot).

Old model Mach 4s are on sale and dropping. 100 on the rear of these, vs the new frame of 106/115 (flip chip rear).
Of course they are tempting me with the xt/xtr, fox 32 100/100 version of the old model at $4500 ($5300 with carbon wheelset). Fox 34, 120/100 version is $4875/$5750 (carbon wheelset).

I'm 58 and still xc oriented towards big rides and not much for air. I'll pound the singletrack down and max out my current fox 32 in braking bumps, but rarely feel limited by the front travel, just the hardtail end.

My question is if I'd really miss out on the 120 in the front vs the 100? Remembering the rear on this old model is the same either route (100).

Competitive Cyclist if you are wondering where.

On one hand, what you don't know can't hurt you. If you're used to a hardtail with a 100mm fork, a Mach 4 with a 100mm 32 is going to feel incredible.

On the other hand, for the type of riding you're looking to do - lots of xc miles, big rides, but (as I understand it) not trying to race competitively, a *slightly* longer travel bike with somewhat relaxed angles is going to be much, much more enjoyable. A smidge heavier, but much, much more comfortable for long days on the bike, and almost certainly faster and more efficient over the course of a big ride. Of the three you listed, the Epic Evo would certainly be my pick. There are a bunch of other bikes that would be worth considering though. Rocky Mtn. Element, Trek Top Fuel, etc.

[Iowagriz]

Agree that anything will feel fantastic in comparison. I just missed out on the Epic EVO by Smoeken (sp?), I procrastinated too much on pulling the trigger. You are correct, big xc rides, Missoula/Whitefish xc type terrain, so not much for extended challenging terrain. No bike park or lift rides, I'll rent if I step into that.

I don't think the Fox 32 is able to be expanded to 120, right? If that is the case, I'd buy the 100/100 Pivot and increase the front travel if I need it later.

[toast2266]

Agree that anything will feel fantastic in comparison. I just missed out on the Epic EVO by Smoeken (sp?), I procrastinated too much on pulling the trigger. You are correct, big xc rides, Missoula/Whitefish xc type terrain, so not much for extended challenging terrain. No bike park or lift rides, I'll rent if I step into that.

I don't think the Fox 32 is able to be expanded to 120, right? If that is the case, I'd buy the 100/100 Pivot and increase the front travel if I need it later.

Yeah, I believe the current model 32 is limited to 100mm. I know a bunch of the XC race guys are running a 34 step-cast now (which is 120mm). The 34 SC only weighs about 100g more than the 32.

[volklpowdermaniac]

At a weird tweener weight right now I don't expect to be at for too much longer after getting some health stuff sorted, my 34 fox pants are just a little too big but not worth swapping for some 32. Sadly neither have belt loops just ratchets. Can anyone's recc a good pair of add on sport suspenders that work with snow/bike pant type material pants? Ones that are not previously designed for suspenders obviously.

Thx

[Tailwind]

I think it would be worth the extra money to get the 120mm fork. I have a Mach 4 and it’s a fantastic bike. It can handle much bigger trails than I think it should be able to but pedals great.

I’d also look at the Revel Ranger. They’re running a great sale. Less racey but a bit more forgiving. Still fast.

Agree that anything will feel fantastic in comparison. I just missed out on the Epic EVO by Smoeken (sp?), I procrastinated too much on pulling the trigger. You are correct, big xc rides, Missoula/Whitefish xc type terrain, so not much for extended challenging terrain. No bike park or lift rides, I'll rent if I step into that.

I don't think the Fox 32 is able to be expanded to 120, right? If that is the case, I'd buy the 100/100 Pivot and increase the front travel if I need it later.

[t.odd]

At a weird tweener weight right now I don't expect to be at for too much longer after getting some health stuff sorted, my 34 fox pants are just a little too big but not worth swapping for some 32. Sadly neither have belt loops just ratchets. Can anyone's recc a good pair of add on sport suspenders that work with snow/bike pant type material pants? Ones that are not previously designed for suspenders obviously.

Thx

https://arcadebelts.com/collections/stretch-suspenders have no idea how this might work, but love their belts...

[meepmoop24]

I'm considering upgrading the fork on my Sentinel V2 to a 38mm option for more stability and curious about what folks would recommend. I'm mainly looking at a Zeb Ultimate or Fox 38 Factory/Performance Elite.

In reading forums I hear mixed reviews about both the Charger 3 damper in the Zeb Ultimate and the Grip2 Damper in the 38. Reading reviews, it's pretty evenly split as far as I can tell. The themes I'm reading are that it seems like the chassis of the Zeb is stiffer and it's easier to set up, while the 38 offers more tunability.

Current Bike Setup:
I ride a Sentinel V2 with a Cascade Link and EXT E-Storia and am running the stock 2021 Lyrik Ultimate RC2 (Charger 2.1 damper). Running 85 psi in the fork, no tokens, middle of the range on HSC, fully open LSC, middle of the range rebound.

Honestly the fork is pretty much perfect but I'm just looking for something a bit beefier since I am often riding pretty rowdy trails on this bike. Since I've added a Stumpjumper as my trail bike I don't need this bike to be as much of a do it all bike.

About Me:
- 5' 11", 190 pounds in riding gear
- Ride primarily in Reno Tahoe area, so fairly chunky and technical
- Also do a handful of bike park days throughout the year at Northstar
- Also make it down to Santa Cruz a couple times a year (steep dirt trails and some bigger hits)

[Dantheman]

You should at least consider the 37 mm option, too.

[Andeh]

If you like some HSC damping, I'd lean more to the Zeb. The 38 HSC damping does very little. Fox's whole paradigm seems to be more along the lines of generating support & control through the air spring, with the damper almost as an afterthought. EXT kind of goes in the opposite direction, relying on the damper so much that they suggest lower spring rates often. The newer Rockshox stuff definitely leans on the damper more, but not to the extent that EXT does. So I feel like you'll be able to balance a RS fork against an EXT shock a little bit easier than Fox/EXT.

[toast2266]

As the owner of a Sentinel V2 as well as a 38 (on a different bike), I'd argue a big fork is overkill for a Sentinel. If you're hitting gnar at sufficient speeds that a 38 is legitimately beneficial, you're into a territory where a longer travel, more capable frame would be a better upgrade. Since you already have the Stumpy trail bike, sell the Sentinel and get some sort of Enduro sled. Spire / Enduro / whatever looks sexy at the moment.

That said, I like the 38 better than the Zeb. The Zeb's damper is a bit more tunable, but the 38's air spring is way better, and that wins out in my book. No experience with the 37mm option, but I hear it's nice.

[Roxtar]

You should at least consider the 37 mm option, too.

x2

the 37mm option, but I hear it's nice.

Very nice.
Stiffer that 36 or Lyric, lighter than 38 or Jeb, plusher than any of them, and easy to tune.
What's not to love?

[meepmoop24]

You should at least consider the 37 mm option, too.

Definitely open to the Mezzer Pro as well, I just haven't had much experience with Manitou and there weren't as many reviews.

If you like some HSC damping, I'd lean more to the Zeb. The 38 HSC damping does very little. Fox's whole paradigm seems to be more along the lines of generating support & control through the air spring, with the damper almost as an afterthought. EXT kind of goes in the opposite direction, relying on the damper so much that they suggest lower spring rates often. The newer Rockshox stuff definitely leans on the damper more, but not to the extent that EXT does. So I feel like you'll be able to balance a RS fork against an EXT shock a little bit easier than Fox/EXT.

This is great insight and news to me. I definitely like a bit of HSC because on my Lyrik it enabled me to dial in performance on big hits without making it overly harsh on smaller trail chatter.

How does Manitou's approach with the IRT volume adjust and MC2 damper compare?

As the owner of a Sentinel V2 as well as a 38 (on a different bike), I'd argue a big fork is overkill for a Sentinel. If you're hitting gnar at sufficient speeds that a 38 is legitimately beneficial, you're into a territory where a longer travel, more capable frame would be a better upgrade. Since you already have the Stumpy trail bike, sell the Sentinel and get some sort of Enduro sled. Spire / Enduro / whatever looks sexy at the moment.

That said, I like the 38 better than the Zeb. The Zeb's damper is a bit more tunable, but the 38's air spring is way better, and that wins out in my book. No experience with the 37mm option, but I hear it's nice.

If I could do it over again I definitely would have gone with the Spire off the bat. At that time I didn't have plans for a second trail bike so I wanted something a bit more well rounded and chose the Sentinel.

However, with the EXT coil and Cascade Link the Sentinel's travel is ~165mm now so it's not far off from a Spire and I think a burlier fork would work well.

[Boissal]

Definitely open to the Mezzer Pro as well, I just haven't had much experience with Manitou and there weren't as many reviews.[...]
How does Manitou's approach with the IRT volume adjust and MC2 damper compare?

There are a few reviews on here, most very positive, mine included. Ran Mezzers on 2 bikes, trail and enduro, loved it on both. Even more now that I'm back on a Pike for the trail bike.
I personally LOVE the IRT compared to fucking around with spacers. I'm not super finnicky in general but I can feel 1-2psi changes in the IRT, meaning I'm banging my head on the wall when the Pike feels way too progressive with 2 volume spacers and linear as all fuck with 1 only. I feel that I need increments of 0.2 spacers to get the same level of sensitivity.
Regarding the MC2 damper, I think it's great, possibly overdamped a touch since I tend to run HSC wide opened. I like a fast fork though and run rebound fully opened as well so take that with a grain of salt. The LSC adjuster does the job, wide range which I actually use a lot depending on steepness of terrain. I do the same shit on the Pike and it feels mostly psychological.

Of note, modifying the shim stack on the Mezzer is very doable at home if you don't like the level of baseline damping.

[dcpnz]

And the Black Friday pricing on the Mezzer was killer. I almost grabbed one even though I have no need for it..