Massively slow skis

**detrusor** · 02-02-2017, 09:30 PM

So my 6 year old has some new moment Carson jr's. They are the slowest fucking skis on the planet. What gives?

I've tuned forever in shops, for the local race kids and privately. I can't figure it out.

Ski s are flat, structured, waxed appropriately etc.

On her little k2's she keeps up, on these she is literally poling her way down the hill.

My next stop is Rennstall and tell them to grind and start over....

Thoughts?

**ZomblibulaX** · 02-02-2017, 09:54 PM

Huh... Maybe you suck at tuning?

How much does she weigh? If she's really light, she might not be effecting (affecting?) the snow enough to make full use of structure/wax. I've run into that with j5/4's before that they can zip along fine on an extrudued base on their cheapy skis, but had to tone down the structure and wax slightly colder on a nicer race ski because they're not changing the snow as they ski across it like a bigger kid would.

Is the ink in the sublimation bleeding through the base? Probably wouldn't make a difference, but trying to think of variables...

**bigdude2468** · 02-02-2017, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by ZomblibulaX

Huh... Maybe you suck at tuning?

How much does she weigh? If she's really light, she might not be effecting (affecting?) the snow enough to make full use of structure/wax. I've run into that with j5/4's before that they can zip along fine on an extrudued base on their cheapy skis, but had to tone down the structure and wax slightly colder on a nicer race ski because they're not changing the snow as they ski across it like a bigger kid would.

Is the ink in the sublimation bleeding through the base? Probably wouldn't make a difference, but trying to think of variables...

Did the bases get too hot when waxing? Seven year old granddaughter rips all over Alta on her Carson's, skis fast, really fast. Its not inherently the skis.

**detrusor** · 02-02-2017, 10:22 PM

I don't think they got to hot. I'm pretty careful.

I not the guy but I tune a pretty quick ski.

The structure idea is a pretty good one. Thanks

**Melee** · 02-02-2017, 10:33 PM

Carsons get the same Durasurf 4001 base that we use on all our skis (along with all USA mfgs like Praxis, ON3P, etc.)

If you want you can ship them back to the factory for a tune but this is a weird isolated issue. Seems far fetched that one tiny section of base would be this slow versus all the other material that came off the roll.

Also, all sublimation comes from the back of the material (something that we changed to about 3 years ago) and typically never penetrates through the entire base. Now when you grind one of our sublimated bases the graphics become more vivid.

I believe this is a structure/wax issue.

**detrusor** · 02-02-2017, 10:56 PM

Thanks Melee. She loves them in steep pow and crud, it's the runouts. I'll have a new stone grind put on and see how they do. I think a less corse structure as above.

She's 40 lbs soaking wet so that might be it.

I religiously wax all our skis for the conditions so we usually have the same wax. Here sister is 7 and 50 pounds. Changed skis between them and older sis was standing still.

I'll report back after a new stone grind.

**Alpinord** · 02-02-2017, 11:08 PM

Before (or after the grind and saturation wax) you might consider applying super hard green wax as a base. You can then micro-manage the amount of structure you free up while brushing. Then apply a colder or equal LF than the low temp of the night before.

**pfluffenmeister** · 02-03-2017, 12:36 AM

So these aren't the red ones?

**whyturn** · 02-03-2017, 01:05 AM

Try a wax mix maybe. Blend em

**Timberridge** · 02-03-2017, 04:38 AM

I hardly ever wax little kid skis for this reason--if you're off a little bit on temp....
Remove whats on there and don't wax them, then fine fibertex pad the hell out of them to get rid of the hairs. Base by itself is zippy stuff.

**ZomblibulaX** · 02-03-2017, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Melee

Also, all sublimation comes from the back of the material (something that we changed to about 3 years ago) and typically never penetrates through the entire base. Now when you grind one of our sublimated bases the graphics become more vivid.

That's pretty cool. Always wondered about that with other brands (armada, lib/gnu) where you see the graphic ink has basically saturated the base, whether its an issue with heat or adhesives that causes the colors to run. Like i said, not likely to slow a ski down, but glad you guys thought about it.

**tenB** · 02-03-2017, 08:33 AM

I've owned several pairs of moments and one pair of bibbys were exactly as you are describing. After a base grind, adding structure, hot boxing, every wax combination known to man, I gave up on them. The guys at Moment were good about responding with ideas, but nothing worked.

**#######** · 02-03-2017, 06:42 PM

It's possible the base itself may have gotten too hot in the sublimation process at the factory and what was sintered base became more extruded like. Just a thought.

**Melee** · 02-03-2017, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by sickturd

It's possible the base itself may have gotten too hot in the sublimation process at the factory and what was sintered base became more extruded like. Just a thought.

Not possible. They get sublimated in temperature controlled ovens. If they get 5F degrees hotter than the temp we heat them to the transfer paper gets stuck to the back of the base and they become unusable.

**StormDay** · 02-03-2017, 08:08 PM

My very small 11 year old girl is plenty fast on her Carsons. Not near as fast as her race skis. But fast enough for me to occasionally make a comment about how much speed she is carrying. Her 14 yr old sister, who is also a light weight, is plenty fast on the flat with her carsons. So, i do not think it is the ski model.

Both kids are in the 2nd season on the Carsons. Previous non-race skis were Gotama Jrs.

Originally Posted by ZomblibulaX

How much does she weigh?

6 yrs old. What length? Is she heavy enough to flatten the ski. What you describe reminds me of how reserve camber skis like the Gotama JR behave. The middle low spot causes the kids to be slow on the flats vs a regular cambered ski. Could it be the ski is not getting flat on the snow, so she has 2 low spots digging into the snow.

In general on the carson, I found them to be excellent powder, crud and all mtn skis for when the race team is free skiing. Regular camber for better grip and same turn style with plenty of float and crud busting capability.

Good luck and hope you figure it out.

**stuckathuntermtn** · 02-03-2017, 09:39 PM

I have Moments with the same fucking problem.
A stone grind and some graphite helped a little, not a lot.
Glad I finally got the Q Labs. Holy fuck, can those bases glide sometimes.
The guys from Moment who used to post here never answered my questions about wtf was wrong with them. It may have been right around when they mostly stopped posting. Paging Melee...nothing.
Not thrilled with them or most of their newest designs.

**stuckathuntermtn** · 02-03-2017, 09:43 PM

Oh, so now Melee posts...

**detrusor** · 02-03-2017, 09:56 PM

She's on the 115, 40 pounds soaking wet.

**detrusor** · 02-04-2017, 11:43 AM

Seem to have a complete lack of structure. Getting a stone grind and a hot box

**tenB** · 02-04-2017, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Melee

Not possible. They get sublimated in temperature controlled ovens. If they get 5F degrees hotter than the temp we heat them to the transfer paper gets stuck to the back of the base and they become unusable.

So what is causing this and what will you guys at Moment do for these customers?

Three examples on this thread alone of the exact same problem. This is not some weird isolated issue as you claim. Responding is one thing, fixing the problem is another. Send him a replacement pair of carsons for his kid, so she can get back to ripping while you guys figure out what happened.

My Bibbys literally felt like they had brakes on them after every tuning remedy was tried. Other Moments I've owned have been awesome fast skis.

**#######** · 02-04-2017, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Melee

Not possible. They get sublimated in temperature controlled ovens. If they get 5F degrees hotter than the temp we heat them to the transfer paper gets stuck to the back of the base and they become unusable.

Uhh, I'm not saying it's not possible but plausible that the top and bottom bases in a certain batch may have reached a higher temperature than 265ºF and while the transfer paper may have not bonded to the DuraSurf it may have, in fact, became less porous.

**optics** · 02-04-2017, 07:29 PM

In melee's defense:

Replacing skis because someone says "they're slow" would open up a precedent that could put them out of business.

Can't imagine how they could verify that. Word gets out and there are 300 beat up skis on their door asking to be replaced because they're "slow".

My experience with these guys is that if you contact them - non anonymously, like on the phone - they are unlikely to leave you out in the cold with any real issue.

**nickel** · 02-05-2017, 01:56 AM

I'm confused. OP specifically stated the skis were structured in first post then comes back and says they seem to have a complete lack of structure?

is you high?

**detrusor** · 02-05-2017, 08:36 AM

Ok, first, I don't want them replaced. Just st quicker

Second. To my eye it looked like they had a fine structure. The guy at rennstal said it was basically none and that was the problem.

Haven't been high since (or drunk) since august 30 1995. For the record.

**Rossymcg** · 02-05-2017, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by detrusor

Ok, first, I don't want them replaced. Just st quicker

Second. To my eye it looked like they had a fine structure. The guy at rennstal said it was basically none and that was the problem.

Haven't been high since (or drunk) since august 30 1995. For the record.

That's the problem. You got to get high