Couloir Ski 4FRNT Hoji vs Kye 95

[mc1227]

Hi everyone. I did my research and read the previous threads on couloir/mountaineering skis, but I'm between these 2 pairs and I'm wondering what to do. I haven't found much in general online. I'm moving to Cham for a year or two. I want a touring ski that's more big mountain/couloir oriented, but this will be my only touring setup, so I don't want to sacrifice everything else for this one aspect. I figure both of these will handle variable conditions pretty well. I know they're both on the heavier end, but I'll compromise with boots/bindings. I'm 5'8'', 150 pounds, so I'm looking at the 173 Kye 95s and the 171 Hojis. The Hoji's have a much larger turn radius at 30m compared to the kye's 20m, but the kye's have more of an effective edge (125 vs 117), plus they're ~20mm narrower and have camber underfoot. What's more important? I normally like to charge, but I've been getting more into the finesse aspect of couloirs lately. Thanks in advance

[smooth operator]

really?
Why these two? I haven't skied either but esp. the Hoji strikes me as anything but a couloir ski. I'd take something~100 mm, with killer edgehold as you'll be skiing a lot of skied-out sketchy couloirs. There are a lot of people in Cham you know...
What other ski's are you bringing? How fit are you? If you're willing to drag up some weight mantra, bonafide/kabookie, or corvus seem more appropriate.

[mall walker]

Lowdown 102 ftw. I have a pair of their predecessor (Countdown 102L) and they are sublime for this purpose. I guess if you were making me choose between these two I'd take the Kye 95?

[Lindahl]

Why the Hoji over the Raven? Seems like a silly comparison?

[auvgeek]

Zero G 108. Seriously. If I could only bring one pair of skis to Cham, they would be it. At your size, the 178 will be perfect. I've owned the Down 102 mentioned above and skied the Hoji—neither are as good as the Zero G 108 in my mind. But obviously it comes down to personal preference.

Plus, if you're in the States, REI has the 178 Zero G for cheap.

[rob stokes]

100% not the hoji.

You want something 105 underfoot, 25ish radius, tip and tail rocker but not much taper. Camber underfoot and about 1900g per ski for your 17x length. Don't go too light, you will be skiing A LOT of variable.

I lived in Cham for a few years, this is what I'd ski everyday.

[mc1227]

Lindahl and smooth, I know somebody who can get me the 2017 kye and hoji for half price. Honestly, I'm trying to only bring 1 pair out there. From research, I gathered I need something stiff, stable, and with a long effective edge and turn radius. The uphill is pretty important. 1700g per ski is the extreme upper end of my weight limit.

And mbillie1, the lowdowns do look interesting, that 41m turn radius is huge! Just wondering, how are they at high speed/pow/crud? I won't only be skiing couloirs .

auvgeek, I was heavily considering the Zero g 108's, but from reviews they seemed to get really chattery if you tried to finish turns before their radius on hard snow. That doesn't sound like something I'm looking for. Who knows though, that was only 1 recount, but a really offputting one. How have your experiences been with hard snow/chatter/deflection?

Rob, how does the lowdown look? At a bit over 1500g per ski, they're pretty damn light, but definitely not the lightest. And can someone explain why that 25m turn radius is the sweet spot? That's one thing I've always overlooked in skis, to be honest. The lowdowns have a 41m. Is the rule here longer = better, or is 41m too long?

[gregL]

auvgeek, I was heavily considering the Zero g 108's, but from reviews they seemed to get really chattery if you tried to finish turns before their radius on hard snow. That doesn't sound like something I'm looking for. Who knows though, that was only 1 recount, but a really offputting one. How have your experiences been with hard snow/chatter/deflection?

I might have said that, but it was based on a few runs on hard groomers at an industry test. The key with the Zero G skis (not just the 108) is to detune the tips and tails to your taste - I round to the base of the tip, give it a degree or two more base edge bevel, and reduce the side edge bevel from 3 degrees to 1 degree (I do this on the whole ski). The ski breeds confidence on steep and icy terrain. You can detune a ski with aggressive edgehold but it's very hard to improve a ski that doesn't have enough.

[gregL]

I might have said that, but it was based on a few runs on hard groomers at an industry test.

. . . how often will you be using these to ski icy groomers at GS speeds on a blue run in Chamonix? (Plus the demo skis were not detuned at all, just waxed) When you get there you will find a lot of Cham 2.0 107's and Corvus on the feet of very good skiers - you could do worse. If I was spending a year or two in Cham the last place I'd look to save money would be my skis.

[rob stokes]

Radius means different things now to a few years back before skis had heavy taper at the tips and tails.

If a ski has too much shape it can become grabby and unpredictable on steep hard snow, and accentuate the 'trampoline effect' in rutted out couloirs (when you get to Cham go ski ENSA a week after a storm if you aren't familiar with this term!) people looked for straighter skis, and spotted them via a bigger radius number.

Now add taper into the mix and a ski uses less shape (side cut) to arrive at the same radius number because of a shorter side cut length.

Personally I have found a ski with moderate taper in the 188 ish length that I ski to be a great compromise when around a 24-28m radius.


If you are set in 4frnt though the raven would be a good shout. Much better than the other two options imo.

Also ignore the 1900g bit. I was thinking in the high 180 lengths with that recommendation, if your skiing a low 170 it will obviously be different.

[smooth operator]

If you're only bringing one ski I'd be very weary of going ultra-light. FWIW I owned the countdown 102L and didn't like it on anything hard, too long of a tip rocker. I own the zeroG95 and while it is a great ski-mountaineering ski for people that like to actually ski on their way down, something in that weight class will never be stable in chop. I'd second mr. Stokes and seriously consider the zeroG108 for what you're describing, it is not as superlight as the 95 and allegedly a bit more stable? Read the blister review when in doubt.
Again, unless you hike a lot and ski the lines no-one skis (which you don't - you are not that extreme in cham), Cham gets tracked fast and you will ski a lot of variable. I like a bit of beef for that. Kabookie would also be a good choice. (Yes I am a bit of a blizzard fan).

The other option would be to bring a second ski, something for pow but with some backbone for crud. That'd be my choice but I'm a gear whore. I wouldn't last 2 years (months) in cham without buying another ski. B.t.w. there are so many people there that you will easily find some cheap secondhand ski's if money is a concern.

[rob stokes]

And I'll add that the Down could be fun. My pow ski was a lotus 120 when I was in Cham and the 40odd m radius was super predictable when entering moderate steeps with hard entry's like rond/cosmiques etc.

Predictable in the fact that I could predict there would be no grip, but no grabbing.....pooooooweeer slliiiiide!!!!

[auvgeek]

How have your experiences been with hard snow/chatter/deflection?

Excellent for their weight.

I skied them in Cham for almost a month last season, and I'd choose them as my only ski for my next trip, too. There may be better skis out there for a do-it-all touring setup, but not that I've found. I think my perfect ski would be the Zero G modified by: less taper, sidecut centered 1-2 cm forward (i.e., mount at about -6), and measure true-to-length. But really, that's pretty nitpicky.

[mall walker]

FWIW I owned the countdown 102L and didn't like it on anything hard, too long of a tip rocker.

I believe the major change in this year's model (the Lowdown) is less tip rocker. The tip rocker on the 102L was extremely long.

On how it handles at speed, YMMV. I'm 5'10" 160lbs and I like it even on frozen groomers, but I'm not much of a bang-around-the-resort guy and I don't generally charge chop in the bc (and I only tour on these sticks)

[rob stokes]

Or rob a bank and get the hoji with kingpin and then something like the zero g 95 with speeds and have a sick Cham two ski quiver.

[mc1227]

Thanks for the help everyone I really appreciate the advice. I think I'm going to go with the Zero G 108's. Solid reviews all around and doesn't break the bank. As far as the bindings go I'm stuck between the newer Ion G3 and Vipec. The Vipec's seem pretty solid this year, addressing previous years' issues, and the elastic toe is great for crashing and burning off cliffs and other shenanigans, but it doesn't look like there's an option to lock the toes in. Apparently you can override the elasticity, but the binding could still come off. I could lock down the Ion's toe in no fall zones, but when I want to dick around/push some air limits, I don't want to worry about blowing a knee/tib fib. I know safety is always a compromise with tech bindings, but the vipec's technology have made me consider it more. I suppose in no fall zones there's always the righty tighty method.

[galibier_numero_un]

Lindahl and smooth, I know somebody who can get me the 2017 kye and hoji for half price. Honestly, I'm trying to only bring 1 pair out there. From research, I gathered I need something stiff, stable, and with a long effective edge and turn radius. The uphill is pretty important. 1700g per ski is the extreme upper end of my weight limit.

And mbillie1, the lowdowns do look interesting, that 41m turn radius is huge! Just wondering, how are they at high speed/pow/crud? I won't only be skiing couloirs .

auvgeek, I was heavily considering the Zero g 108's, but from reviews they seemed to get really chattery if you tried to finish turns before their radius on hard snow. That doesn't sound like something I'm looking for. Who knows though, that was only 1 recount, but a really offputting one. How have your experiences been with hard snow/chatter/deflection?

Rob, how does the lowdown look? At a bit over 1500g per ski, they're pretty damn light, but definitely not the lightest. And can someone explain why that 25m turn radius is the sweet spot? That's one thing I've always overlooked in skis, to be honest. The lowdowns have a 41m. Is the rule here longer = better, or is 41m too long?

I own auvgeek's Countdown 102's (not the "L's") which are about 7.5 Lbs.

I can't speak to whether you'd like them. But I can say that their stability is remarkable. They feel like a pair of skis that's 1 or more pounds heavier (per pair).

The Zero G's have always intrigued me as well (I see you pulled the trigger on a pair).

Purchasing on price alone seems nuts to me (what GregL said), compared against the experience of spending a dream year or two in Cham.

Another option would have been wait until you get there and check out Black Crows and Down first hand.

...Thom

[rod9301]

I would use the vwerks katana as an only ski there. And definitely the ion.

[Lindahl]

Excellent for their weight.

I skied them in Cham for almost a month last season, and I'd choose them as my only ski for my next trip, too. There may be better skis out there for a do-it-all touring setup, but not that I've found. I think my perfect ski would be the Zero G modified by: less taper, sidecut centered 1-2 cm forward (i.e., mount at about -6), and measure true-to-length. But really, that's pretty nitpicky.

You should try the Raven

[auvgeek]

There are guys in Cham who won't ski the Vipec for the reasons you mention.

The bottom line is in a place like Cham, you'll care far more about not losing a ski on a steep lines than releasing safely when dropping cliffs. If that's really a high priority, get another pair of skis with an alpine binding.

You should try the Raven

Looks like too much taper and tail rocker to me, plus the 184 will probably measure the same as the Blizzard 185. Have you skied them both?

[XavierD]

The Kye 95 is probably the worst ski I have been on in the last 5 years. It try's to be a playful-jib style-charger that is good on firm and soft snow and ends up totally failing at all of it. All from a ski that looked so good on paper. I was disappointed.

At least the Hoji has an identity as a ski and does a good job of being a narrower pow ski that works really well with backcountry boots. With the new lighter build it would likely make an excellent pow focused touring rig with some kingpins. It will work for your intent, just not well.

Just because you can get a low price on some skis does not mean it is a good deal.

Edit: re the ZeroG 108. If I could only own one ski, this would be it.

[smooth operator]

I would use the vwerks katana as an only ski there. And definitely the ion.

that would also be a killer ski for cham me thinks

[ClarkleberryFinn]

Why only one ski, any why bring it with you?

Gotta be a bunch of cheap/last season/2nd hand skis kicking around Cham.

Or just get these: http://www.downskis.com/shop/countdown-104-2016

I have the old 107mm version with Kingpins and they're pretty great allround skis. Good balance of grip, float and stability.

Not the lightest setup, but I dragged them 5642m up Elbrus last May.