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  1. #26
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    Oct 2003
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    Well... maybe... I remember back for the 14 years I've been here. I've seen a lot of change. And I've heard plenty from those who were here in the 90s... 80s... 70s...

    But...

    I also see a USFS that is so restrictive of permits that nothing gets approved for YEARS even for colleges with existing outdoor programs wanting to teach an extra avalanche class.
    I see the only way anyone can start a new op is by outbidding another guiding operation vying for user days from someone who has permits but doesn't use them!
    An entire operation can go under because the permit holder decides to sell user days to another operation!

    The proposed solution may swing the pendulum too far... but that can be addressed too.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Colorado
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    5,517
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Well... maybe... I remember back for the 14 years I've been here. I've seen a lot of change. And I've heard plenty from those who were here in the 90s... 80s... 70s...

    But...

    I also see a USFS that is so restrictive of permits that nothing gets approved for YEARS even for colleges with existing outdoor programs wanting to teach an extra avalanche class.
    I see the only way anyone can start a new op is by outbidding another guiding operation vying for user days from someone who has permits but doesn't use them!
    An entire operation can go under because the permit holder decides to sell user days to another operation!

    The proposed solution may swing the pendulum too far... but that can be addressed too.
    I can see how NFS constraints would suck for guide or potential guides. I can also see how we would see a large increase in guided parties if rules are loosened. Increasing guided usage and making more backcountry users will impact the quality of experience for existing users, but again i guess thats just the get off my lawn selfish reasoning..

  3. #28
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    Oct 2003
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    I don't think there is a huge pent up demand for guiding in most areas (except snowmobile guiding). I doubt we are going to see double or triple the users days. But if I am wrong, then I imagine they will take some action to constrain.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Mt. Baker
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    1,754
    Quote Originally Posted by John_B View Post
    What is being talked about to close in Baker-Snoqualmie?
    Pretty much every road off of 542 is on the chopping block. Sounds like Canyon creek will be saved by funding from boarder patrol and glacier creek should stay unless it washes out again. Wells Creek road is closed and will not re-open. That had the best summer access of all IMOP.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Seattle
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    33,546
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunder View Post
    Pretty much every road off of 542 is on the chopping block.
    Same thing going on along 410
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  6. #31
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Flavor Country
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    2,974
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    I don't think there is a huge pent up demand for guiding in most areas (except snowmobile guiding). I doubt we are going to see double or triple the users days. But if I am wrong, then I imagine they will take some action to constrain.
    I think you are probably right. People already hell-bent on guiding or just plain clueless are already guiding illegally so I'd be surprised if there is a huge increase in those type of trips. Plus just because the FS streamlines the permitting process that doesn't necessarily mean the individual forests are gonna allow huge increases in user days. The biggest benefit is gonna be for schools and education groups that are required to have permits for their activities. But like I said, plenty of them already do it without one so I doubt it's gonna be a big increase, except for the money the FS collects for permits, which IMHO it desperately needs.

    And while the backcountry has undoubtedly gotten more crowded in just the 18 years I've lived here, and will continue to do so, anyone who thinks its mainly, or even really partly, because of FS permits and guides needs to pull their head out of their ass. Guide companies exist because of demand, they don't create it.
    "They don't think it be like it is, but it do."

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    2,315

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Two Thousand Leagues
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    1,014
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    I don't think there is a huge pent up demand for guiding in most areas (except snowmobile guiding). I doubt we are going to see double or triple the users days.
    Agreed. NPS stats indicate that overnight backcountry usage has been in steady decline for +10 years while dayhike and front country use has climbed. Lots of crowds taking selfies at the popular waterfall spots, but beyond the Instagram hot spots, the data shows public land has mostly gotten less crowded.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    SLC
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    5,846
    The people whining about how the backcountry is too crowded get on my nerves. You don't own the NFS land, the population keeps going up, the gear gets better... what do you expect to happen, everyone to stop touring because you're a few years older than them and have a shit attitude? If you're so experienced and hardcore then you can just go faster/further/radder than these hordes of backcountry novitiates I keep hearing about, right?

    You hear this shit a lot in the Wasatch. Hey sorry that your personal stash of awesome ski terrain 20 mins from a fucking major metropolitan population center got discovered, bummer. Move north?

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Paradise
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    5,197
    Quote Originally Posted by mbillie1 View Post
    The people whining about how the backcountry is too crowded get on my nerves. You don't own the NFS land, the population keeps going up, the gear gets better... what do you expect to happen, everyone to stop touring because you're a few years older than them and have a shit attitude? If you're so experienced and hardcore then you can just go faster/further/radder than these hordes of backcountry novitiates I keep hearing about, right?

    You hear this shit a lot in the Wasatch. Hey sorry that your personal stash of awesome ski terrain 20 mins from a fucking major metropolitan population center got discovered, bummer. Move north?
    But it gets so much harder to go faster/further/radder the older I get! Places like the Wasatch and the front range/I-70 areas I basically have written off as sacrifices for the masses. There are plenty of uncrowded places to still explore and contrary to popular local belief both the Wasatch and the Tetons are not the ski centers of the universe. I still like skiing in all three of those mentioned places but I wouldn't go to any of them for the privacy.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    SLC
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona13 View Post
    But it gets so much harder to go faster/further/radder the older I get!
    Heh this is kinda what I was getting at... a lot of it ends up sounding like people just bummed that they're getting old and putting the blame where it really doesn't belong

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    322
    Ignore this post (unless you can tell me why)...trying to figure out why I can't reply to threads in the gear forum.

  13. #38
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    Nov 2014
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    SLC
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    Quote Originally Posted by mabdd7 View Post
    Ignore this post (unless you can tell me why)...trying to figure out why I can't reply to threads in the gear forum.
    I believe there is some sort of minimum post count requirement to post in gear swap (probably 10 posts?)

  14. #39
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    Dec 2009
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    Paradise
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbillie1 View Post
    Heh this is kinda what I was getting at... a lot of it ends up sounding like people just bummed that they're getting old and putting the blame where it really doesn't belong
    Yup, you meddling kids stay the fuck off MY lines!
    dirtbag, not a dentist

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