Contractor types: WWMD? Bid/Estimate etiquette?

[beaterdit]

I'm sure when he says "settle up" he means he's going to give you some money back.

Oh duh. We're all good here then.

You looking for someone to practice on first?


All kidding aside... Having been down this road before, I'll never do it again.

1. Get a final number
2. Figure out how much of that is material cost
3. Figure if any material is to repair things he fucked up - subtract from material total
4. Subtract valid material costs from total cost
5. Divide remainder by number of hours worked
6. Decide if you think the $/hr number is reasonable, all things considered. Adjust accordingly.
7. Multiply your $/hr number by the number of hours
8. Add wages to valid material cost

You'll have your version of the total. Since there's no contract and no permit, I expect it will be very difficult for either of you to take the other to court without making this a lot harder than its worth.

On a separate note - you'll want to consider how to determine whether the electrical and plumbing are done correctly. Not because you'll recoup anything - just because.

Dude didn't move a wet wall, right?

This sounds like a good way to go, however, way too far into it at this point. Next time...

He did not move a wet wall but added one. All the old plumbing was discarded. It all just came up haphazardly from the crawl space before. The new one just comes up from the crawl space and only services the bathroom and laundry, which is on the first floor. The main sewer line is directly below it all. The wet wall that goes upstairs is elsewhere. Another contractor I've since worked with on another project (has a strong background in plumbing and especially electrical) looked around quick and said he didn't see anything glaringly out of place. All the circuits check out on the tester.

By bid, do you mean estimate? Around here nobody would bid a remodel, especially if the house was that old. It would be time and materials. In order to bid something, you would need full plans with finishes called out so everyone was putting a price together for the same thing. You would then add money to that when things aren't as expected when you get into them.

Few questions for him: what is his hourly rate, cost of any subs and his percentage on their bill, cost of materials and his percentage on top of them, how many hours he put into the project. That should add up to the final cost.

Was he working diligently when he was there? His cost so far seems cheap for the work you described.

Yeah I guess I mean estimate. I've always worked with friends on a time and materials basis. Pretty new at dealing with actual contractors. I'll add up the materials costs and look at his receipts. He absolutely was not working diligently and I doubt he kept track of his hours, I certainly didn't. He mostly would come over for a few hours at a time sporadically, sometimes he wouldn't even show up for a week or more on end.

Pay materials, acknowledge the complexity of the job means going over budget is realistic and you're happy to pay accordingly. Let him get that validation, but hold him accountable for delays with pressure to reduce labor by a % to compensate for hassle to your fam. 10%, 20%, whatever he acknowledges as a reasonable haircut on his work for treating it like a side job. It may not amount to much but you'll get some recourse & stay on the level with him without coming off as unappreciative or a prick. Nothing wrong with being firm & fair.

If you can get an inspection or an objective statement of deficiency in the quality of work or materials, add that as well. It may be harder to get agreement there vs. the time delay though.

This is solid, thank you. Sounds like a reasonable way to approach it. I'm not gonna bother getting a third party to look at it unless problems come up, which they haven't so far. I might point out a few things that are less than professional. General consensus seems to be that I'm getting a bargain any way you slice it though. So I can feel good about paying more than I already have.

[fastfred]

this is too awesome

I'd say something intelligent but I just smoked half a huge doobie and I wanna go work on my bikes

lets just say people make a lot of stupid decisions in life, like when in comes time to have someone work on their house, just because they saw someones work and it looked nice, well that don't mean shit, I can make a turd look nice and sell it to people

shit ain't cheap and you thought you were gonna get something cheap and have it look nice, oh boy, it don't work that way, so pay the dumb fuck who had no right to be doing what he was doing, and chalk it up to you being dumb

I spent the day running in circles, chasing my tail, wondering why people don't listen to me, wondering why I repeat myself all the time and why I am usually unprepared, had to do a bump off the back side of my clip board to keep shit straight today (ran out of ritalin) but it all started after I got all out blasted with lunch beer and a bowl, I think I spent only five grand today, only 15% of it was wasted money because of bad ideas, and that's on the low end of daily expenditures, my POS truck blasted some anitfreeze all over some granite pavers where I was parked at one point (customers house), I had to hand one dip shit some cash to tied him over till pay day, I made a check out wrong for someone else and couldn't pay them, plus I forgot to bring a blank check with me, this one job looks like a bomb went off and the customers are showing up tonight and think they are going to have running water to take a shower, ha ha, I'll give you ten bucks so you can go down to the rec center and shower tonight, and now I'm too tired to go ride so i'll just tinker with my mtb bikes. Now here is the question would you hire me?

[DeepHelmet]

Don't call an inspector, you need permits for what you did and he may turn you in. I just did a bunch of very similar work at my house. Let me know if you want me to look at this guys work or if you want any help cleaning it up. I'd be happy to come over.

[tuco]

Now here is the question would you hire me?

Well, send him your resume. He is looking for someone to blow his neighbor!

[beaterdit]

Don't call an inspector, you need permits for what you did and he may turn you in. I just did a bunch of very similar work at my house. Let me know if you want me to look at this guys work or if you want any help cleaning it up. I'd be happy to come over.

Hey thanks A! I think I'm good though, I can live with the work for sure. I think everything's legit too. At least mostly ha! Don't let that stop you from dropping by for a beer some time though!

.................... whoa, dude....................... Now here is the question would you hire me?

Well, send him your resume. He is looking for someone to blow his neighbor!

What he said.

[old goat]

Interesting how things differ by state. In CA a fixed bid is required for anything over $500. Contingencies are allowed, for blasting for example. Of course contractors have a way of getting around this--its hard to say no to more money when you're staring at a hole in the ground and the builder is threatening to walk. And for some jobs you may not be able to find someone to do the work except for time and materials, but the contractor would not be able to collect if things go south. We built a garage--got a fixed bid and then the excavator wanted more money, the concrete guy wanted more, we wound up going over bid, but when the contractor wanted more we said no. He and the excavator both turned us over to collections. A letter from a lawyer friend to the collection agencies took care of that. No hit on our credit report.
How much did you pay for materials? Unless you paid quite a lot, the price seems reasonable for what was done. The quality of the work is another issue. If the framing, electric, or plumbing is not code you would have to figure in correcting it. If it's not quite professional trim and drywall work, not much you can do about it.
In CA contracting without a license is a finable, jailable misdemeanor.

[beaterdit]

Not too concerned about the plumbing and electrical. It's definitely more on the finishing end of things, sloppy drywall work being part of it.

Bottom line, you get what you pay for and even though he went way over. I'm still getting a good deal and I shouldn't bitch about paying more.

[tuco]

Interesting how things differ by state. In CA a fixed bid is required for anything over $500. Contingencies are allowed, for blasting for example. Of course contractors have a way of getting around this--its hard to say no to more money when you're staring at a hole in the ground and the builder is threatening to walk. And for some jobs you may not be able to find someone to do the work except for time and materials, but the contractor would not be able to collect if things go south. We built a garage--got a fixed bid and then the excavator wanted more money, the concrete guy wanted more, we wound up going over bid, but when the contractor wanted more we said no. He and the excavator both turned us over to collections. A letter from a lawyer friend to the collection agencies took care of that. No hit on our credit report.
How much did you pay for materials? Unless you paid quite a lot, the price seems reasonable for what was done. The quality of the work is another issue. If the framing, electric, or plumbing is not code you would have to figure in correcting it. If it's not quite professional trim and drywall work, not much you can do about it.
In CA contracting without a license is a finable, jailable misdemeanor.

In UT, you can do work without a licence if the total cost does not exceed $1000(except plumbing and electrical) total, material and labor. You can do work up to $3000(no plumbing or electric), material and labor, with a handyman's license. Anything higher and you need a contractors license in the respective fields.

[Dhelihiker]

If you have no contract, his bid is your contract. As long as what he is charging you for is actually "extra" and a fair price, you should pay him.The amount of work you listed and the price seems cheap. It sounds like your still saving vs the other bid too

[stfu&gbtw]

Would be interested to see a pic of the drywall work. Have experience with the results or paying a lot, a little, and nothing. Curious where yours falls in the spectrum...

[wooley12]

Not too concerned about the plumbing and electrical. It's definitely more on the finishing end of things, sloppy drywall work being part of it.

Bottom line, you get what you pay for and even though he went way over. I'm still getting a good deal and I shouldn't bitch about paying more.

He went way over but you still got a deal? Maybe prepare to pay some more when you meet. I've worked on a few pre 1900 houses including my own doing what you had done and I'd never do it for money unless it was time and materials. I had to be creative with the drywalling a few times because nothing is square to the world in those houses.

[skifishbum]

theres an i in dyi time and pride
settle up and pay
not so much

[billyk]

Not much to say until you find out what "settle up" means. Hear him out.

[irul&ublo]

this is too awesome

I'd say something intelligent but I just smoked half a huge doobie and I wanna go work on my bikes

lets just say people make a lot of stupid decisions in life, like when in comes time to have someone work on their house, just because they saw someones work and it looked nice, well that don't mean shit, I can make a turd look nice and sell it to people

shit ain't cheap and you thought you were gonna get something cheap and have it look nice, oh boy, it don't work that way, so pay the dumb fuck who had no right to be doing what he was doing, and chalk it up to you being dumb

I spent the day running in circles, chasing my tail, wondering why people don't listen to me, wondering why I repeat myself all the time and why I am usually unprepared, had to do a bump off the back side of my clip board to keep shit straight today (ran out of ritalin) but it all started after I got all out blasted with lunch beer and a bowl, I think I spent only five grand today, only 15% of it was wasted money because of bad ideas, and that's on the low end of daily expenditures, my POS truck blasted some anitfreeze all over some granite pavers where I was parked at one point (customers house), I had to hand one dip shit some cash to tied him over till pay day, I made a check out wrong for someone else and couldn't pay them, plus I forgot to bring a blank check with me, this one job looks like a bomb went off and the customers are showing up tonight and think they are going to have running water to take a shower, ha ha, I'll give you ten bucks so you can go down to the rec center and shower tonight, and now I'm too tired to go ride so i'll just tinker with my mtb bikes. Now here is the question would you hire me?

You must be a contractor in Truckee. Pick one, any one.

[muted]

Not too concerned about the plumbing and electrical. It's definitely more on the finishing end of things, sloppy drywall work being part of it.

Bottom line, you get what you pay for and even though he went way over. I'm still getting a good deal and I shouldn't bitch about paying more.

Why not spend more and get the drywall fixed before it's painted? Somebody re-did parts of our house a long time ago, and it bugs me every time I see the couple sloppy drywall corners and small patches of shit-sand job. It may bug you for eternity, too. (Anyone visiting the house would never notice though, IME.)

Edit: I love fastfred.

[encore]

What's my play here? What is the common practice? Is it normal to just suck it up when a contractor goes way over budget?

He's 26% overbudget. WHY? If it has to do with unforeseen conditions (i.e. conditions within the walls or ceiling that could have not been anticipated) then it's reasonable that you should pay him. If its due to you upgrading fixtures, or changing the design, then you should pay him. If it's due to price increase over time due to the unreasonable amount of time he took to complete the project, then tell him to pound sand.

Do you have a written bid which outlines the scope of work? Probably not, right? Well then it's your word against his.

If your relatively happy with the work, then I'd just pay him. 26% over budget sucks, but you need to find out why he's overbudget. If reasonable, then pay. If he can't support the overbudget with receipts or a reasonable and truthful explanation, then just negotiate.

Whatever you do, don't be an ass. Be professional. And don't threaten to out him to the zoning department for his triplex.

[encore]

Not too concerned about the plumbing and electrical.

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about that either. I mean, electrical work completed by an unlicensed electrician is no big deal. I mean it's not like faulty electrical work is not a threat to life safety. Bad electrical never causes fires; don't worry about it.

And plumbing...yeah don't worry about it. I mean it's not like water leaks aren't the number one cause of insurance claims.

But that drywall work...you better get that shit straightened up!

[RShea]

Pretty new at dealing with actual contractors. I'll add up the materials costs and look at his receipts. He absolutely was not working diligently and I doubt he kept track of his hours, I certainly didn't. He mostly would come over for a few hours at a time sporadically, sometimes he wouldn't even show up for a week or more on end.

You basically still have not dealt with a home remodeling contractor at all. A neighbor that is moonlighting and acting as a contractor maybe. But there are many reasons why most states have Contractors laws and require licensed contractors. It also can affect the resell value or even being able to resell the house. Your home owners insurance company may also have issues with the work done. It is not like getting a buddy to finish a few items if the plumbing and electrical is now all enclosed, there could be hidden issues.

[Danno]

I'm just glad it wasn't me who started this thread.

[BigDaddy]

For once...

[nest]

this is too awesome

I'd say something intelligent but I just smoked half a huge doobie and I wanna go work on my bikes

lets just say people make a lot of stupid decisions in life, like when in comes time to have someone work on their house, just because they saw someones work and it looked nice, well that don't mean shit, I can make a turd look nice and sell it to people

shit ain't cheap and you thought you were gonna get something cheap and have it look nice, oh boy, it don't work that way, so pay the dumb fuck who had no right to be doing what he was doing, and chalk it up to you being dumb

I spent the day running in circles, chasing my tail, wondering why people don't listen to me, wondering why I repeat myself all the time and why I am usually unprepared, had to do a bump off the back side of my clip board to keep shit straight today (ran out of ritalin) but it all started after I got all out blasted with lunch beer and a bowl, I think I spent only five grand today, only 15% of it was wasted money because of bad ideas, and that's on the low end of daily expenditures, my POS truck blasted some anitfreeze all over some granite pavers where I was parked at one point (customers house), I had to hand one dip shit some cash to tied him over till pay day, I made a check out wrong for someone else and couldn't pay them, plus I forgot to bring a blank check with me, this one job looks like a bomb went off and the customers are showing up tonight and think they are going to have running water to take a shower, ha ha, I'll give you ten bucks so you can go down to the rec center and shower tonight, and now I'm too tired to go ride so i'll just tinker with my mtb bikes. Now here is the question would you hire me?

Fast Fuckin Fred- Always quality posts

[fastfred]

You must be a contractor in Truckee. Pick one, any one.

same idea but more like scummit county colorado

I'm not a contractor though, I just play one on tv

[fastfred]

You basically still have not dealt with a home remodeling contractor at all. A neighbor that is moonlighting and acting as a contractor maybe. But there are many reasons why most states have Contractors laws and require licensed contractors. It also can affect the resell value or even being able to resell the house. Your home owners insurance company may also have issues with the work done. It is not like getting a buddy to finish a few items if the plumbing and electrical is now all enclosed, there could be hidden issues.

I like this post.

I ain't licensed, that kind of stuff is for amatuers, as long as you pretend to know what you are doing and look like you know what your doing then it's all good

with that in mind I gotta finish this paper work crap and get back to these customers that love me, it's all about the smile, if things get to serious I start talking about bike riding, skiing, and hiking, then they forget what were talking about. plus they owe me a 26,000 check, I sure as fuck hope they pay up, it is friday right, fuckers need to pay on payday, i just hope they don't get all squirly and think they don't need to pay all of it, I mean they do want windows in the house next week don't they?

[old goat]

You must be a contractor in Truckee. Pick one, any one.

Not so. Ron Adams--shows up, keeps his subs on schedule, costs less than Reno, very careful, quality work, no surprises. They love him at the lumber yard which means he pays his bills. He's a snowboarder but other than that.

[Chugachjed]

As always the answer has been on TGR in other forum thread (Boat Titles):

Attachment 185564

I actually saw a boat here at the fuel dock yesterday named change order.