Brexit

[PNWbrit]

aaand bojo is the new foreign minister...

Often described as the only cabinet position you can totally screw up and damage only yourself not the party.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...on-pmq-britain

In the end, though, perhaps you shall know a country by the boggling displacement activity in which it engages in its hour of greatest crisis. The prime minister was at pains to address one of the dominant news preoccupations over the past 48 hours. To wit: the future of Larry, the Downing Street cat. Honestly, this bleeding cat. There is no better illustration of the thousand-yard stare of British repression than the worry, time and concern that has been lavished on this cat, even as Britain hurtles deeper into the shitstorm. How will the cat take a new person in charge of the people who are in charge of the people who put food in its bowl? Is the cat pining? Is the best thing to do with the cat to give it to the Cameron children? Or will the cat take Brexit as an opportunity, and seize it with both paws? What is the best way to help the cat through this?

[jamesp]

Often described as the only cabinet position you can totally screw up and damage only yourself not the party.

ha true. I was thinking it wasn't nice unleashing him on the rest of the world but I guess it keeps him away from domestic politics.

[PNWbrit]

Most of foreign office responsibilities have been shifted to other departments anyway and there's a new position of minister of brexit.

[klar]

I quite like these reaction videos.

[Benny Profane]

British humor can be so strange at times.

[Mulletizer]

Here's another good piece of analysis:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n15/john-la...r/brexit-blues

Edit: the most I've posted in 5 years has been in a thread about politics. Fuck.

[neufox47]

^^^ "Making economic arguments to voters who feel oppressed by economics is risky: they’re quite likely to tell you to go fuck yourself. That in effect is what the electorate did to the almost comic cavalcade of sages and bigshots who took the trouble to explain that Brexit would be ruinous folly: Obama, Lagarde, Carney, the IMF, the OECD, the ECB, and every commentator and pundit you can think of. The counter-argument wasn’t really an argument but a very clever appeal to emotion, to the idea that the UK could ‘Take back control’."

Nailed it. Scary as shit for the US too.

[iceman]

Fortunately for them they appear to have been wrong about their ability to actually change anything.

[Mulletizer]

Fortunately for them they appear to have been wrong about their ability to actually change anything for the better.

FIFY.

[Benny Profane]

Here's another good piece of analysis:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n15/john-la...r/brexit-blues

Edit: the most I've posted in 5 years has been in a thread about politics. Fuck.

Good read. So much applies to us.

[Buster Highmen]

I always thought one of the fundamental problems with the left is their inability to harness the "go fuck yourself" inertia.

They're too PC to help direct the lower middle class and middle class anger to where it belongs.

Hence Trump's and a lot of the right wing's success.

[Bromontana]

I don't see prior dem policy doing much to help lower middle class folks. That said, 100% agree with the nature of Trump support. Rural America has been in recession for almost a decade, people are pissed.

- trade partnerships accelerating factor price equalization, disproportionately impacting blue collar employment
- abandoning labor as a political force as corporate money took its place at the table
- initially approving and reinforcing the cycles of ME regime change
- 1994 crime bill, doubling down on Prison indust. complex*


*luckily it did include some checks & balances that may actually help unf*ck the mess(es)

[old goat]

I always thought one of the fundamental problems with the left is their inability to harness the "go fuck yourself" inertia.

They're too PC to help direct the lower middle class and middle class anger to where it belongs.

Hence Trump's and a lot of the right wing's success.

Political correctness is a term that gets misused a lot. Complaining that serving Bahn Mi sandwiches in the Oberlin College cafeteria (my alma mater I'm almost sad to say) is cultural appropriation is PC. Complaining about police targeting black people is not PC. One is a trivial issue; the other is huge.

The left has had no trouble harnessing the "gfy inertia". Mao did it, Castro did it, Lenin did it, the French Revolution did it, Chavez did it. The results have generally turned out to be as bad as when the right--Hitler, Mussolini, et al--did it--and will turn out to be as bad if Trump succeeds. Anger, hatred--whether of the liberal elites, the other, or the ruling class--is real but it is not a good recipe for running a country. For better or worse the left in America has chosen the path of rationality, at least for now (we'lll have to see what the Berners do) which is a good thing IMO.

People are overthinking this Brexit thing. It's racism pure and simple--listening to the "leave" voters will tell you that--and the support for Trump is the same. It's not surprising--LBJ famously predicted that signing the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act would cost the Democratic Party the South for a generation. He was wrong--it's been longer than that; as John Stewart said, Romney carried the Confederacy. Nativism has been a constant plot line in American politics for a very long time but in the end diversity as always won. Whether it will continue to do so is an open question.

[Buster Highmen]

The left has had no trouble harnessing the "gfy inertia". Mao did it, Castro did it, Lenin did it, the French Revolution did it, Chavez did it. The results have generally turned out to be as bad as when the right--Hitler, Mussolini, et al--did it--and will turn out to be as bad if Trump succeeds. Anger, hatred--whether of the liberal elites, the other, or the ruling class--is real but it is not a good recipe for running a country. For better or worse the left in America has chosen the path of rationality, at least for now (we'lll have to see what the Berners do) which is a good thing IMO.

I'm talking the DNC/Amurikan left.

People are overthinking this Brexit thing. It's racism pure and simple--listening to the "leave" voters will tell you that--and the support for Trump is the same. It's not surprising--LBJ famously predicted that signing the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act would cost the Democratic Party the South for a generation. He was wrong--it's been longer than that; as John Stewart said, Romney carried the Confederacy. Nativism has been a constant plot line in American politics for a very long time but in the end diversity as always won. Whether it will continue to do so is an open question.

Have you spoken with any British Leave supporters?
I think this is common misconception, held largely by the PC ostensible liberals in Amurika.

Racism and labor issues are two different things. In my book, it is understandable if a worker objects to lax immigration policies if it dilutes the workforce and undercuts their pay. This is different than racism and is a really important distinction.

[Buster Highmen]

I don't see prior dem policy doing much to help lower middle class folks. That said, 100% agree with the nature of Trump support. Rural America has been in recession for almost a decade, people are pissed.

True, recently the DNC and left have not been much help to the lmc. And Trump has leveraged that. And that's exactly my point. The DNC has fucked up and continues to fuck up with the likes of the sellout Queen.

- trade partnerships accelerating factor price equalization, disproportionately impacting blue collar employment
- abandoning labor as a political force as corporate money took its place at the table
- initially approving and reinforcing the cycles of ME regime change
- 1994 crime bill, doubling down on Prison indust. complex*

Yup.

*luckily it did include some checks & balances that may actually help unf*ck the mess(es)

The message is fucked up though.

[old goat]

I'm talking the DNC/Amurikan left.

So am I. Trump, Hitler, and Mussolini are examples of appealing to anger, hate, and frustration and finding a convenient scapegoat to blame everything on. A left wing politician who did the same thing would look a lot like Mao or Lenin.
There are complex economic reasons why the working poor and middle classes are suffering. The appeal of the demagogues is that rather than try to explain these reasons and offer difficult and slow-to-take-effect solutions they blame the who thing on the other. In fact the other, in the form of immigrants, is an economic boon in rapidly aging populations like those of Europe and to a lesser extent the US. The challenge has been to integrate immigrants into society. When they are isolated, whether by actions of the government--for example by keeping immigration illegal as in the us, or at least in part by their own volition as with many Muslims in Europe, they form an easily exploitable underclass that do depress wages. But try explaining all that in a campaign.

Of course the bosses like it just the way it is. Why do you think the Republican Party consistently refuses to consider immigration reform. They get to serve the bosses by keeping an exploitable pool of undocumented immigrants who keep wages and benefits low while at the same time appealing to white American workers who blame those immigrants for low wages and benefits. Brilliant, really.

The sentiment constantly expressed by leavers is that they want free trade with the rest of the continent, without the free movement of people that the EU requires. While strictly speaking that's not all racism--Polish workers are white--it amounts to the same thing.

[klar]

John Oliver points out that feelings are not the same thing as facts. It's about Trump and co here but imo this is a relevant thing in the kind of weird, crazy eyed campaigning that seems to be happening almost everywhere these days. It baffles me how they can get away with so much blatant bullshit and this is an explanation that hadn't occurred to me but kind of makes sense. Variation of telling people what they want to hear I guess..

e.g. "I feel that giving 350 million pounds a week to the EU is too much and we need to act on this. It is totally irrelevant that we do not give 350 million pounds a week to the EU."

[abraham]

John Oliver points out that feelings are not the same thing as facts. It's about Trump and co here but imo this is a relevant thing in the kind of weird, crazy eyed campaigning that seems to be happening almost everywhere these days. It baffles me how they can get away with so much blatant bullshit and this is an explanation that hadn't occurred to me but kind of makes sense. Variation of telling people what they want to hear I guess..

e.g. "I feel that giving 350 million pounds a week to the EU is too much and we need to act on this. It is totally irrelevant that we do not give 350 million pounds a week to the EU."

Yeah, don't you get a second chance to vote after that court decision?

There was an interesting article about Trump's language and how people can say he uses simple words and sentence structure but they resonate with people. I'll have to remember where I read it.

[Buster Highmen]

So am I. Trump, Hitler, and Mussolini are examples of appealing to anger, hate, and frustration and finding a convenient scapegoat to blame everything on. A left wing politician who did the same thing would look a lot like Mao or Lenin.

No, you're not. You're confusing reason with scapegoating.
Being concerned about what it might look like is a classic failure of the left. The point is that the middle class and lower middle class have every right to be angry and the DNC should be exploiting that. It wouldn't be that hard if the members of the DNC weren't on the take.

There are complex economic reasons why the working poor and middle classes are suffering. The appeal of the demagogues is that rather than try to explain these reasons and offer difficult and slow-to-take-effect solutions they blame the who thing on the other.

These demagogues take advantage of the failure of the Left to explain the reasons behind this suffering. Part of the problem is that the DNC won't own up to their part in Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, the Fed/banking buttfuckery, Globalization bs and being bought off.

In fact the other, in the form of immigrants, is an economic boon in rapidly aging populations like those of Europe and to a lesser extent the US. The challenge has been to integrate immigrants into society. When they are isolated, whether by actions of the government--for example by keeping immigration illegal as in the us, or at least in part by their own volition as with many Muslims in Europe, they form an easily exploitable underclass that do depress wages. But try explaining all that in a campaign.

As a worker in a field (software) which is being undermined by powerful corporate entities who apply for hundreds of thousands of visas per year when not bothering to interview local candidates, I might disagree that immigrants are an economic boon to workers such as myself. As far as the illegals or the failure to integrate, that's another matter.

[Buster Highmen]

John Oliver points out that feelings are not the same thing as facts. It's about Trump and co here but imo this is a relevant thing in the kind of weird, crazy eyed campaigning that seems to be happening almost everywhere these days. It baffles me how they can get away with so much blatant bullshit and this is an explanation that hadn't occurred to me but kind of makes sense. Variation of telling people what they want to hear I guess..

e.g. "I feel that giving 350 million pounds a week to the EU is too much and we need to act on this. It is totally irrelevant that we do not give 350 million pounds a week to the EU."

This is the failing of the rationalists: while the manipulation of the populace is repugnant, it's not that hard to turn those feelings of anger and disenfranchisement into well grounded resentment. But again, the problem is that the power brokers and members of the revolving political/think tank/stink bank merry go round don't really want to get off.

[klar]

Yeah, don't you get a second chance to vote after that court decision?

I live in AT but am not a citizen (thanks to the eu that doesn't matter at any other time) so I personally don't, but yes, that is happening. The FPÖ used to be famous for some particularly charming campaign slogans that not only had simple words but simple words that rhymed, such as "Heimatliebe statt Marokkanerdiebe" which rhymes and translates to something like "Patriotism instead of thieving moroccans" , or "Österreich denkt um, zu viel EU ist dumm" - literally "Austria is changing it's mind, too much EU is dumb". There were a bunch of similar ones. Unfortunately they seem to have stopped with the poetry and are now delivering the same message in a slightly more sophisticated manner. Seems to be working pretty well

edit: Buster, yeah, I find the failing of rationality scary because being able to think rationally when we want to is something that I consider a pretty cool human skill. If we acted on every emotion and impulse we have without reflection we wouldn't live very long (at least I know I wouldn't have )

Oh and: Syriza in Greece and Podemos in Spain seem to be examples of the left mobilizing middle class anger that do not look all that much like Mao or Lenin.

[Skidog]

yup...americas lower and some middle class folks are pissed....they've had enough.. "the Donald" plays off that...he says exactly what those voters want to hear. someone else mentioned it perfectly. Trump has harnessed the "fuck you" voter block. Thats a lot of people.

this is going to get interesting really fast.

[Buster Highmen]

I live in AT but am not a citizen (thanks to the eu that doesn't matter at any other time) so I personally don't, but yes, that is happening. The FPÖ used to be famous for some particularly charming campaign slogans that not only had simple words but simple words that rhymed, such as "Heimatliebe statt Marokkanerdiebe" which rhymes and translates to something like "Patriotism instead of thieving moroccans" , or "Österreich denkt um, zu viel EU ist dumm" - literally "Austria is changing it's mind, too much EU is dumb". There were a bunch of similar ones. Unfortunately they seem to have stopped with the poetry and are now delivering the same message in a slightly more sophisticated manner. Seems to be working pretty well

Worked for Hitler. Hopefully the new German ethos will win out.

edit: Buster, yeah, I find the failing of rationality scary because being able to think rationally when we want to is something that I consider a pretty cool human skill. If we acted on every emotion and impulse we have without reflection we wouldn't live very long (at least I know I wouldn't have )

Oh and: Syriza in Greece and Podemos in Spain seem to be examples of the left mobilizing middle class anger that do not look all that much like Mao or Lenin.

I have to accept that there has to be a bit of showmanship to all this, but it's really important to distinguish between showmanship that integrates some truthfulness and that which doesn't and is essentially propaganda.

[summit]

FPÖ in Austria, NF in France, the list goes on...

[PNWbrit]

Racism and labor issues are two different things.

They often make eager bed fellows though.

Bigotry, racism, nativism and nationalsim make up a good part of the whole Brexit movement. The UKip part has it's foundations in hardcore right wing of the NF and BNP. It's rise led to (another) groundswell of anti-euroness in the Conservative party that Cameron attempted to quell with the stupid referendum.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7160786.html

"The database includes incidents such as a Polish doctor treating patients in a hospital in Oxford, a city where more than 70 per cent voted remain, being told to “f***ing go back to where you belong.”

The involvement of children as victims and perpetrators was described by the authors of Post-referendum racism and xenophobia as “one of the most alarming and least expected trends”.

A two and a half-year-old Polish girl walking with her mother through a park in Croydon, south London, was told by a 60-something grandfather: “We voted to leave so why the f*** don't you go home? None of us want you here.”

In Taunton Deane, Somerset, a 10-year-old told their German teacher: “I’m not doing what a bloody foreigner tells me to.”

Nor was the racism restricted to people who could be categorised as frustrated and socially excluded.

In an expensive restaurant in Mayfair, London, on the day the referendum result was announced, a party of celebrating Brexiteers refused to be served by an Italian and demanded an English waiter.

An online booking for another top London restaurant included the demand: “I want British waiter please. Don’t send any Europeans to my table.”