Khion carbon vs Khion MS vs Vulcan

[sethschmautz]

Hey guys,

I have a question regarding the stiffness and flex characteristics of the two Khion models related to each other, and then related to the generation 1 Vulcan.

I've been searching all over the place trying to find a review of report on the difference between the two models of Khion, but it doesn't seem like once exists. Has anybody been able to ski both of them? Any comparisons of the MS to other boots on the market?

The second question is related to how the MS stacks up to the Vulcan. I have the first generation Vulcan which does not have the bump stops that some relate to the brick wall feeling on the later models. As with my Vulcans, the khion would serve double duty for inbounds and backcountry. I really only use the tongues in the Vulcan when skiing inbounds. Can anybody compare the Khion MS to the Vulcan with the tongue?

The Vulcans seem to be enough boot for me for how and where I ski. I would rather not lose any stiffness, but the cost of the Khion MS is quite a bit less than the carbon version.

Any info would be helpful. Thanks,

Seth

[shafty85]

Why not just keep using your Vulcans?

[XXX-er]

I've carpet flexd the garish purple women's Khion cuz thats all that fit my small AZN feet and they were soft but they seemed to fit maybe need a punch in the toe area

I'm pretty sure the non carbon Khions are a little stiffer than Vulcan, I am pretty sure those grey Khions are gona be softer than a Vulcan and not tour as well as a Vulcan

The Khion were panned and called a sidecounrty boot

[sethschmautz]

Good questions/observations.

Shafty - I really love my Vulcans, but they cause both toes to fall asleep. I'm not 100% certain of the cause, but I think it's due to a narrow(er) midfoot/toe box area. I believe that this is pinching my forefoot and reducing blood flow to my toes. I toured in them on Saturday and my toes are still tingling today.

I live in Kalispell, MT, and have visited the closest bootfitter, but honestly, he didn't have many good ideas nor did he seem to want to work on the issue very much. Not to throw him under the bus, but I believe he enjoys simple work - molding liners, building orthodics, etc. When we discussed the problem, his initial solution was simply to build me custom $250 orthodics - all over the phone without looking at my feet, the boots, or finding out where the pressure was.

A friend had him punch his boots this past winter and was not impressed by the process or how aggressively he punched them. He was hoping for a slow process of punch, ski, punch more (if necessary), ski, etc. He ended up with an agressive punch that now has him swimming a bit in his boots.

Everything I have read suggests that the Khions have a little more room in the mid foot and toe box, which I *believe* would solve my current problem. It's possible that it wouldn't but my reasoning is that it probably wouldn't be worse than what I have now (other than tourability which XXX-er has pointed out). I'm using these boots as a one boot quiver for inbounds and backcountry, although I'm not spending much time in the backcountry these days with 2.5 kids. So the boots will likely be skied more inbounds with the occaisional tour or early morning fitness skin/ski at the resort.

Sort for the diatribe. At the end of the day, I think that if I could get the Vulcans to fit properly and not cut off the blood flow, I'd stick with them in a heartbeat. However, I don't trust the local bootfitter and I don't believe that it is cost effective for me to travel to a bootfitter several times in another time during the winter to get it right.

I'm open to other suggestions, but above is my thought process, as flawed as it may be. Any suggestions?

XXX-er - I didn't totally understand your post. Non-carbon is stiffer than Vulcans, but the grey ones (non carbon) aren't? That seems like a contradiction. Did you mean that the carbon ones are stiffer but non carbon are not?

Thanks,

Seth

[sethschmautz]

Whoops. Meant to upload this picture also. I feel pressure inward (blue arrows) especially in the area of the red circle. The blue circle feels squished, which I believe is causing the lack of blood flow to toes, but not positive.

[XXX-er]

the white ones are the carbon and they are stiffer than Vulcan

the grey ones are the non carbon and to my understanding not as stiff as a vulcan

the purple are womens and are definatley softer tha a Vulcan

ithe stock Vulcan liner sucks pretty bad so if you are still using it that could be your problem and you might need a punch

[auvgeek]

Hey Seth,

The Vulcan has a crazy shaped toe box. Way too narrow for the rest of the boot. I'd put money on that being your issue. You can verity by doing a shell fit to see where your foot touches the shell in the front. If necessary, use a ball peen hammer to tap the outside of the shell with your foot inside. While the stock liners suck, swapping for an Intuition likely won't fix the issue if your foot is touching the shell with no liner.

The Khion (from what I've read) doesn't have quite as good heel hold or ROM as the Vulcan, but it improves on them by having a wider toe box and a more progressive flex. Personally, I love my Vulcans—the heel hold is the best I've ever had, and I hate to mess with that. (I also hesitate to try on the Khion for fear of "needing" an upgrade, haha.) But at the end of the day, nobody on the interwebz can tell you with any certainty that the Khion will solve your particular fit issues...no matter how stiff, light, progressive, etc the boot is.

Not having access to a good boot fitter is rough, but I would hesitate to bank on finding a boot that fits well enough off the shelf with no punching. I've never been able to achieve that, but maybe you have a more generic foot. My personal advice: find the best boot fitter who works at a resort (or close to it) where you could take a weeklong vacation with the family. After dumping too much money and time into boots that don't fit, I've found it's worth the initial investment to see someone good, buy what they recommend, and let them fit the boots. If that's just totally out of the cards, I would buy the Khion/Beast, Mtn Lab, Zero G Pro Guide, etc, from somewhere with free shipping and a reasonable return policy, try them all on, and pick the one that fits the best.

[sethschmautz]

Thanks guys. Using an intuition pro tour.

Everything I've read supports what auvgeek reiterated - wider mid and toe box. I'll verify the shell fit. Banff isn't too far from here - maybe I could justify a trip to go see mtnlion.

Is Canada still 30% off?

Seth

[auvgeek]

Using an intuition pro tour.

That's a pretty high volume liner. If you do a shell fit and you're not touching the shell too hard, a lower volume liner might solve your issue.

[Lindahl]

Whoops. Meant to upload this picture also. I feel pressure inward (blue arrows) especially in the area of the red circle. The blue circle feels squished, which I believe is causing the lack of blood flow to toes, but not positive.

Its possible that a footbed would solve your issue. It did for me. It keeps your foot better locked into proper position and away from the front of the boot which can cause the numbness and pressure you're talking about. It also more evenly distributes the pressure across the entire foot which could alleviate the symptoms as well. Most feet without a proper footbed will flatten out and widen as well, which would make things worse. That said, $250 is really expensive.

[XXX-er]

Sounds like you are experiencing The Vulcan death grip which is the squished forefoot due mostly to a shitty liner which a lot of users experianced

That black thing sewn to the front of the stock liner may look like suede but its really an upside down piece of cheap Naugahyde with a piece of elastic sewn underneath, its 3mm thick in total and it sits right on top of your foot

if you cut/pick the stitching that piece come off the liner real easy in about 2 minutes, you may experiance relief and you will probably say to yourself wtf were they thinking?

as for liners if you are experiancing a tight instep, I went to the intuition factory outlet in Vancouver for their most expert service, they stock every liner you can buy and they know which one to use in every app

I tried a couple of tongued liners, IME where the tongue of a intuition liner attaches to the liner bugged my foot and gave me much the same problem as the stock liner so I use the powerwraps

as for footbed mostly I need arch support for flat footedness so I use a sole foot bed which is a 40$ off the rack item and I sand the grey foam off the bottom of the fore foot to give me extra toe room, I also have some superfeet but the sole work better for my flat foot

edit: missed that you are using a pro tour liner but maybe its too high volume for your foot, also maybe its just the rong boot for your foot

[swissiphic]

Skied the Mercuries (+/-) same/similar shell shape as Vulcans (maybe a hair different according to XXX'er?) for years. I have a wide/vertically thin forefoot. In stock form without forefoot shell punching for extra width I experienced extreme pain/numbness at ball of foot/toes and aggravation of morton's neuroma (roughly in area of blue circle in your pic). Didn't have time for pre emptive shell punching so I cut out lateral and medial sections of the stock liner after molding failed to provide enough width. Replaced the excavated foam with thin el cheapo camping mattress blue foam and taped it into place with duct tape. Worked okay as a stop gap desperation measure.

After aggressive forefoot punching for width, utilization of a rigid custom orthotic, and purchase of intuition high volume luxury liners with foam compressed wafer thin on lateral and medial forefoot areas, the boots fit great with no pain, good warmth, comfortable touring and great fit tension for high performance downhill skiing.

[sethschmautz]

XXX-er - I do have a little bit of what you're discussing with both the stock liner and pro-tongue. Some in this forum felt a lot of pain/pressure from that patch just behind the toes on the top of the foot. I don't find a lot of pressure from that spot, but it's certainly possible that's where at least some of this is coming from. However, it seems like the majority of the pressure is on both sides of the foot inward.

Swissiphic - My wife is a PT, so we've discussed the Morton's Neuroma a bit. Interesting solution, and that may be the way to skin this particular cat. Auvgeeks comments are similar.

The pro/con list in my mind for moving to a different, but similar boot, is that for less money than a new liner, bootfitter work and a hard orthodic, I could try a Khion which may (or may not) solve the issue. If the Khion doesn't solve it, I'm in the same shoes, but down a little bit of money that I could otherwise apply to a solution.

Resale should be better on the Khions (if they don't work) and downhill performance should be better (carbon version). The only downside seems to be touring (which is a bummer, for sure). And, I could be simply kicking the can down the road...

This is good info though, thank you all.

Seth

[shafty85]

What size are your Vulcans - any chance you'll move them cheap?

[sethschmautz]

28.5. I have then for sale for $325 in gear swap. Pretty cheap for those boots in great shape. :-)

[XXX-er]

the pressure you feel on top the foot with the vulcan would depend on if you have a high instep and I do but with a pwr wrap I can fit the boot a 15mm shell fit with no punches using a PW

I have a half a doz different orthotics since 1982 some custom made costing hundreds, some off the shelf like the yoursole.com, IME its really all about finding the orthotic your foot needs and I have found it on a shelf

I could JUST barely get the khion on my foot without removing the liner from the shell which is not a selling feature, i noticed the Khion was already discounted 27% by xmas of last season at MEC which seems like not great sales/acceptance for the follow on to the mighty vulcan

[Lindahl]

Yeah, I don't think the resale of a Khion will go too well if you do want to try one out. Vulcans do way better

[XXX-er]

the pressure you feel on top the foot with the vulcan would depend on if you have a high instep and I do but with a pwr wrap I can fit the boot with no punches using a PW

I have a half a doz different orthotics since 1982 some custom made costing hundreds, some off the shelf like the yoursole.com, IME its really all about finding the orthotic your foot needs and I have found it on a shelf

I could JUST barely get the khion on my foot without removing the liner from the shell which is not a selling feature, i noticed the Khion was already discounted 27% by xmas of last season at MEC which seems like not great sales/acceptance for the follow on to the mighty vulcan

[sethschmautz]

Hmm. Good points on resale.