Heading down while others are heading up

[powdork]

^http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...nner-Ski-Ranch

[raisingarizona13]

Maybe we Americans are just way too safety obsessed. What did we have in North America this year, like 40 something avalanche deaths? That's probably around normal for the Chamonix and surrounding valley areas no?

[Tryingtostaywarm]

Maybe we Americans are just way too safety obsessed. What did we have in North America this year, like 40 something avalanche deaths? That's probably around normal for the Chamonix and surrounding valley areas no?

This is opening a can of worms. I don't think there is a good answer. I've lived and ski'd on both continents...more-so in Europe though. In Yurp, I got the vibe that a human life in regards to skiing, especially off-piste, means about nothing hence they just let you do whatever you want, and if you die(fully knowing the consequences) then meh. Whatever, it is your fault(which it is). Here in the states, with litigation running amuck there are an incredible amount of blame placed on other people for any accident. Prime example was last season when the two young(er) US ski team athlete's died at Sölden, off-piste. Unfortunate for sure, but I was there almost every weekend that season in Dec/Jan, and I don't think I heard a peep from locals in that area talk about that incident. Like oh! people died in an avalanche on off-piste terrain..no shit. Different train of thought for sure, for better or worse? Who knows.

[Foggy_Goggles]

This is everything I love and hate about Cham. It is no secret that it is the (one of?) premier place in the world for easy access ski mountaineering. It is really difficult to truly understand unless you have been there. When talking about the lift accessed classics in Europe, I feel that the risk management is totally different. Don't expect to stand on top of the first Grand Envers pitch, dig a pit and talk about it. Either the Scando Freeriders or a lone Frenchy will snake your line.

There are plenty of places both in the popular ski resorts and elsewhere, where you won't see a soul but at you Cham, Engleberg, Verbier type places when it's on...it's on. Be prepared.

[rod9301]

Yeah, this is why I won't ski there again. The number of people skiing a steep line on a powder day is unacceptable for me.

By contrast, skiing in the Pyrenees, lots of steep lines but nobody skis them.

It's really nice to ski a couloir in powder without worrying that someone else's slough will take you down, or worse, someone falling above you.

I haven't climbed in chamonix, only skied a bunch of times, but I hear that good routes are also really crowded. for me, this takes the fun out of climbing.

[old goat]

Nobody climbs or skis in Cham any more. It's too crowded.

[klar]

heading down while others are heading down, sobering account of chamonix shit show
http://blog.black-crows.com/en/24-05...ttered-spring/

[Vt-Freeheel]

Eye opening ^^^ and tragically sad.

[yellofin]

To take that I'm special and I don't give a shit attitude to such a shrine and disrespect it because your the kid who always got a trophy not smart enough to realize every asshole got one is so dangerous so sorry hope you're on the mend and able to get back to what you love
I have had great guides in Cham I never skied lines with that exposure but I respect the professionalism that they will take to make sure you are safe and not going to be putting someone else in danger.
On a different note being in rough seas in my small boat late in the season with a fly rod in my hand I have experienced many reckless guides putting me and there clients in danger just to catch a fish so I guess it's just human nature.

[old goat]

To take that I'm special and I don't give a shit attitude to such a shrine and disrespect it because your the kid who always got a trophy not smart enough to realize every asshole got one is so dangerous so sorry hope you're on the mend and able to get back to what you love
I have had great guides in Cham I never skied lines with that exposure but I respect the professionalism that they will take to make sure you are safe and not going to be putting someone else in danger.
On a different note being in rough seas in my small boat late in the season with a fly rod in my hand I have experienced many reckless guides putting me and there clients in danger just to catch a fish so I guess it's just human nature.

Is there a coherent thought here? If so could you point it out?

[peds]

heading down while others are heading down, sobering account of chamonix shit show
http://blog.black-crows.com/en/24-05...ttered-spring/

I was among the teams queueing for the Cosmiques that day... four of us were the third team to rap in, and three friends of ours made up group four. Although the absolutely horrible story from a few hundred metres to our north that morning speaks volumes about the manners shown by some of the so-called "extreme" skiers these days, it has to be said that the various teams rapping in and waiting to rappel into the Cosmiques were patient and courteous, or at least they were for the short space of time that we were lurking at the top. We left the guys in front of us enough time to get out of the couloir, we didn't see the next team behind us start skiing until we were safely out of the way, down at the top of the second junction near the base of the couloir, and we even found the time to wait halfway down and chat to the scary Finns, Mikko Heimonen and Jesper Petersson as they skied a steep-and-rocky variation that joins the top of the Rond and the bottom of the Cosmiques, before we let them overtake us and speed on down to the glacier. They made an awful lot of sluff, as did we... obviously we let them ski and get some distance in front of us.

At some point we stood and stared at the helicopter circling around the Rond. We watched it dropping off a crew member at the bottom of the exit couloir to save weight, then setting down out of sight at the base of the Rond face, above those terrifying handing seracs, before reappearing with Minna dangling underneath it and zooming off. Then they came back and took the guy who was waiting at the bottom of the couloir.

A disintegrated knee is a pretty shitty price to pay for what was, ultimately, some bad skiing. All reports from every side of the Midi were of 30-50cm of super light powder on top of a sheet ice base. It just wasn't skiing properly, you connected with the base on every turn. What it really wanted was some time to glue together overnight, the higher slopes would have skied perfectly the next day, regardless of how disgustingly unpleasant the sluffed-out, sun-crusted, cookie-studded traverse back to the midstation would have been after an evening in the sun. But this, of course, would have meant an agreement between all the hundred and fifty people who skied the west face that day that they'd just leave it alone for twenty four hours. Haaa! Right.

So yeah, bits of the day were truly the Chamonix shit show at it's finest. As another local commented on one of the various facebook posts concerning the day, it's only a matter of time before some gets straight-up murdered through negligence. It's shitty weather here right now so hardly anyone is still skiing, and steep season might be pretty much over for most people, so we've probably gotten away with it for this year. But if conditions next spring are as good as they were this year, and if the crowds on the serious stuff are the same or even bigger, then people are going to die for sure.

(PS, I scrubbed up my previous post in this thread and stuck some pictures to it, it's from a different episode over a month ago and it mostly says the same thing as up there in the thread, but give it a read if you want on my "web log". It's about crowds and manners and etiquette and things.)

[klar]

just leave it alone for twenty four hours. Haaa! Right.

That's another issue that seems to be getting more and more annoying. While not on the Cham level of steep and gnar there are a few spots around here with big terrain, where a couple of years ago you could wait for things to settle as long as seemed like a good idea. Now you can either ski it on 'considerable' days or when it's a bump run.

Thanks for the insights from the Chamonix scene!

[mall walker]

Now you can either ski it on 'considerable' days or when it's a bump run.

a lot of the big / popular / easy-to-access lines in the Wasatch are the same way

[subtle plague]

Gettig sluffed down the rond.....brr that is the definition of scary. not even thinking about the heinous injuries....
yeah That's why I only went there once skied the touristy cosmiques at 11am as lazy later comer in late May (though back in 2006 there were only a few tracks in it, maybe 5-10ish) and never went back. I don't like super exposed stuff I don't like crowds so the combination of those is not what I'm after in skiing.

[yellofin]

Is there a coherent thought here? If so could you point it out?

Sorry 0G it was a long night at work I read that story and it got me angry.
The point is that guides in France are so well trained in as safe as possible mountain travel
I would doubt that they would let their clients ski in that manner but do they have a moral obligation to say something to unguided out of control skiers

[old goat]

Sorry 0G it was a long night at work I read that story and it got me angry.
The point is that guides in France are so well trained in as safe as possible mountain travel
I would doubt that they would let their clients ski in that manner but do they have a moral obligation to say something to unguided out of control skiers

That I agree with--but it doesn't sound like any of the parties were guided that day. I wonder if a guide would even have taken a party down that kind of terrain with that kind of snow (the term "dust on crust" somehow doesn't do justice when you're talking about terrain like that.) Enough guides die there doing the "safe" stuff. Both times I've been in Chamonix there was a professional who had just died--first time an Italian guide, second time a PGHM officer, both in crevasses. I wouldn't think a guide would live long taking chances, but then I'm just guessing. In any case, in the Alps the philosophy is to let anyone take any risk they're willing to take, although if someone's actions hurt someone else--setting off any avalanche on a party below for example--they can often be prosecuted.

[peds]

I'd put a considerable amount of money on there being no guided groups there that day. Aside from the knowledgeable people who hit the west face all the time and know more-or-less how to behave there, a significant portion of the crowds would have been people trying to squeeze one more Midi run in on their winter lift pass, which would expire in just over a week. I think this upped the numbers there that day, and added quite significantly to the overcrowding.

Anyway, regardless of the fact that there probably weren't any guides with clients there that day, I have to say, having a guide's badge doesn't mean you are inherently safer than everyone else on the mountain. I have had to raise my voice on several occasions to guides who are creating cluster fucks on crowded routes with rope spaghetti or removing other people's gear or trying to overtake in ridiculous places...

(edit - one example... I had a guide with client rappeling through our rappel ropes once on an alpine ridge route, meaning that the third person in our party of three couldn't move until guide had pulled their cord and fucked off out of it...)

You are just as likely to be an asshole as any other guy on the mountain, it's just that you'll often think that you have more right to be an asshole because of your guide's badge. Although thankfully, it has to be said, assholes are still in the minority (whether they are guides or normal people), despite the occasional episode such as last week's Rond that suggests the contrary.

Thanks for the insights from the Chamonix scene!

My pleasure, I'm happy to chip in when I can, I love the sound of my own voice.