VW Cheater Diesels

[Nevada29er]

After dieselgate broke, everyone was saying that there were going to be great deals on VW TDIs, buy now, yada, yada.

Where are they? I've been looking for a great deal on a used manual TDI Passat or Sportwagen, and no luck. There are few to be found, and the ones I've seen have been going for more than a new gasser.

Are people hoarding them due to the fix affecting mileage and performance? What gives?

[Shredhead]

After dieselgate broke, everyone was saying that there were going to be great deals on VW TDIs, buy now, yada, yada.

Where are they? I've been looking for a great deal on a used manual TDI Passat or Sportwagen, and no luck. There are few to be found, and the ones I've seen have been going for more than a new gasser.

Are people hoarding them due to the fix affecting mileage and performance? What gives?

There were some deals right after the story broke. But now, I think people are waiting for the final settlement offer.

Wife has a 15 Q5 TDI and loves the car. Took the $500 Maintenance credit, $500 owner loyalty credit card, 3 years free roadside and now waiting for the final settlement offer.
We plan to keep it a long time.

[Nevada29er]

By settlement offer, you mean the buy back? I think I read somewhere it was only $5k, I would keep it.

The other question is will they make you "fix" it?

[old goat]

I suspect a lot of current owners figure it's a nice car and gets good mileage--why sell; The pollution doesn't bother me. People are also waiting to see what VW, the Feds, and the states are going to do as far as repairs or buy back.

[WMD]

I'll sell you my Jetta Sportwagon TDI. It goes back to VW first day they'll buy them. But that rumored $5k is in addition to buying them back at pre scandal bluebook. So I doubt there are any deals out there.

Edited to add: I love the car but the pollution bothers me.

[Flexon Phil]

I have one and no way would I sell in right now knowing a settlement coming. $5K (that number was reported by many credible sources) plus a fair value for the car.

[Flyoverland Captive]

So what will VW do with all those cars they buy back?

[WMD]

My guess? Sell them to people in Africa and South America where there are lax environmental laws.

[Nevada29er]

I'll sell you my Jetta Sportwagon TDI. It goes back to VW first day they'll buy them. But that rumored $5k is in addition to buying them back at pre scandal bluebook. So I doubt there are any deals out there.

Edited to add: I love the car but the pollution bothers me.

I highly doubt they will be paying pre-scandal bluebook, in addition to the $5k.

I guess when the "fix" comes out in June, all the new inventory that's in purgatory will start to make it to market. At that point my guess is prices will be lower since there is going to be some performance/ mileage concession with the fix.

I think the fallout of this whole thing is the death of diesel cars in the US. Such a shame as nothing beats a diesel on the highway.

As far as pollution goes, its a mixed bag anyway because diesel has less CO2 emissions than gassers.

But the real issue is the playing field isn't level to start, with respect to trucks. There's probably 30 to 50 diesel trucks rolling coal(talking pickups not tractor/trailer) to every TDI on the road, and they probably emit 100x the NOx of a TDI. Where are the regulations on those things?

[Tryingtostaywarm]

But the real issue is the playing field isn't level to start, with respect to trucks. There's probably 30 to 50 diesel trucks rolling coal(talking pickups not tractor/trailer) to every TDI on the road, and they probably emit 100x the NOx of a TDI. Where are the regulations on those things?

I'm talking out of my ass here. But, after living in Europe for a good amount of time driving exclusively diesel SUV's,trucks, and cars . How 'Murica isn't on board on the diesel thing has to be only one thing I can think of. Oil companies are in cahoots with automotive manufacturers(already known), if you start building cars like what are available in every other country but US/Canada then demand will go wayyy down if you literally increase every vehicle across the spectrum MPG's by 10+. You see the issue here. Most say that we can't have them because of emissions. Well shit, why would Europeans in general..especially West Europe(Scandinavia, Germany/Austria/Switzerland etc.) be soooo concerned with going green, their pollutants, mandatory recycling where you have to separate all your trash etc.. then just NOT give a shit about their diesel cars. That is, claiming that diesels polute ungodly amounts of whatever is complete manure on the US part. We get a little bit of that taste with the VW's, and the new GMC/Chevy Colorado but still. My 4x4 Hilux over across the pond was getting consistent mid-20 MPG's when converted from km/L, and yes it as 4x4 w/ 32's on it. Why does Europe have these extremely fuel efficient vehicles(compared to the US): Because their diesel/petrol prices are $3-4 dollars more per gallon(when converted) than the US. Therefore, they HAVE to have more efficiency because no one is going to buy a fucking truck that gets 10mpg when it costs $200+ to fill up. Here, in 'Murica where fuel is cheap there isn't a need for ultra-efficient vehicles because it isn't mandatory if that makes sense. I mean, this isn't a revelation, and is rather expected because after-all this is 'Murica. We like those greenbacks.
Just look at the 4BT motor that is ever-so-popular in off-road vehicles.

[XXX-er]

Yup most of the cars in euro land are diesel like I would gues 9 out of 10 and diesel fuel is cheaper than rug

used to be 10-15 yrs ago that most of the VW's sold in canada (60%) were diesel and diesel fuel was usually cheaper than RUG but that has changed around

I think you are mostly talking about the US market and since population wise canada is the size of california ... we are really just another state in america

[AK47bp]

My boss has a TDI, said VW giving $5k and blue book value pre scandal. She also said that her car wouldn't be able to be registered, at least in WA because it fails emission tests. Not sure about the last part.

[snoqpass]

If it's 2009 or newer no test is needed

[Todd Zander]

Part of it is how the refineries are configured to "crack" the barrel into it's respective grades, they've been setup for certain ratios of oil/gas/diesel/jet fuel out of each barrel and that would have to change gradually alongside the introduction of more diesel vehicles.

But it's a cultural thing too, gas boasts more HP every time, every single car ad "best hp in class" blah blah try explaining torque to an american consumer.

[LightRanger]

I'm talking out of my ass here. But, after living in Europe for a good amount of time driving exclusively diesel SUV's,trucks, and cars . How 'Murica isn't on board on the diesel thing has to be only one thing I can think of. Oil companies are in cahoots with automotive manufacturers(already known), if you start building cars like what are available in every other country but US/Canada then demand will go wayyy down if you literally increase every vehicle across the spectrum MPG's by 10+. You see the issue here. Most say that we can't have them because of emissions. Well shit, why would Europeans in general..especially West Europe(Scandinavia, Germany/Austria/Switzerland etc.) be soooo concerned with going green, their pollutants, mandatory recycling where you have to separate all your trash etc.. then just NOT give a shit about their diesel cars. That is, claiming that diesels polute ungodly amounts of whatever is complete manure on the US part. We get a little bit of that taste with the VW's, and the new GMC/Chevy Colorado but still. My 4x4 Hilux over across the pond was getting consistent mid-20 MPG's when converted from km/L, and yes it as 4x4 w/ 32's on it. Why does Europe have these extremely fuel efficient vehicles(compared to the US): Because their diesel/petrol prices are $3-4 dollars more per gallon(when converted) than the US. Therefore, they HAVE to have more efficiency because no one is going to buy a fucking truck that gets 10mpg when it costs $200+ to fill up. Here, in 'Murica where fuel is cheap there isn't a need for ultra-efficient vehicles because it isn't mandatory if that makes sense. I mean, this isn't a revelation, and is rather expected because after-all this is 'Murica. We like those greenbacks.
Just look at the 4BT motor that is ever-so-popular in off-road vehicles.

Eh?
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/12/01/f...to-ban-diesel/
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33254803
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scie...pollution.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...pollution.html
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/14/e...sel-emissions/
http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-air-pollution

These were all penned before the VW scandal dropped. Euroland is moving away from diesels too.

[WaistDeepGroomers]

I had heard recently that VW will either buy back the car or fix the emissions thing and in both cases offer a significant cash payout. We brought ours in last week to VW for check up and they didn't have details so I assume things aren't finalized. But don't plan on getting rid of our TDI Sportwagen. Absolutely love it!

[PNWbrit]

I assume things aren't finalized.

Yes. Correct. VW emissions scandal has not yet been finalized.

[Tryingtostaywarm]

Eh?
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/12/01/f...to-ban-diesel/
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33254803
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scie...pollution.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...pollution.html
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/14/e...sel-emissions/
http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-air-pollution

These were all penned before the VW scandal dropped. Euroland is moving away from diesels too.

No, I'm talking realistically right now, and the years before. We had the VW diesel Rabbit in the 80's which those things got like 35mpg's but here we are..in 2016 still driving spark-ignition engine's getting 25mpg. This is the same as the Electric car movement here in the US. There are far too many diesels for Europe to banish diesel cars even in the next 20+ years as that would be mean people would have to buy a new(er) vehicle or at least another one. Sure, maybe in some cities(proper area) but not across the board. Like here, when people say, Oh! Electric cars are coming soon and automation etc. Well, that is all great except look at the number of cars on the road that are 10+ years old because people can't afford a new or even 1-5year old cars. It is the same in Europe, unless you live in Baden-Würtemmberg, DE where everyone is rich driving new Audi/BMW/Benz whatever. According to Popular Mechanics..Europe's diesel market makes up for 50% of total cars(first google search item). Yeah..good luck putting a ban on that unless you offer some incentive/buy out for people to go from diesel>petrol which I have no idea where EU would get the funds for that across the board. I'm just looking at this objectively, because to be honest, I don't care about the emissions stuff(I know I should). They aren't just going to ban diesels anytime soon when 1/2 of total cars are diesel. Certain EU leaders might be saying bans..but just go to every car manufacturers website that ends with .de, even if you can't sprechen Sie, the majority of new cars are still rolling out with diesel motors, and advertising them(just look up BMW.de, 3 series or whatever). To say they are moving away soon, currently, is like saying here in 'Murica we are moving away from the internal combustion motor soon.
In short: The proletariat's aren't going to be getting rid of their used cars anytime soon, nor can afford to. The industry isn't trying their hardest for efficient vehicles whether petrol or diesel because that would mean other industry's are going to lose $.

[uglymoney]

Eh?
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/12/01/f...to-ban-diesel/
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33254803
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scie...pollution.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...pollution.html
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/14/e...sel-emissions/
http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-air-pollution

These were all penned before the VW scandal dropped. Euroland is moving away from diesels too.

Wow. That is a lot of reading material. Good links. I've so many mixed feelings on this whole thing but I get frustrated when I read people try to play down diesel pollution as unimportant. It matters and companies playing by the rules should matter as well.

[WMD]

I had heard recently that VW will either buy back the car or fix the emissions thing and in both cases offer a significant cash payout. We brought ours in last week to VW for check up and they didn't have details so I assume things aren't finalized. But don't plan on getting rid of our TDI Sportwagen. Absolutely love it!

Keep in mind that in order to get the cash payout you will need to get your car "repaired." The fix almost assuredly will affect driving performance, fuel economy, or both. It probably won't be the same car anymore. Mine goes back. I bought it because it was green AND fun to drive. Now it isn't green, and may not be fun to drive either. I guess we'll have to wait and see the fix, but I feel cheated by VW and don't want to drive their cars anymore.

[uglymoney]

Just speculation of course but if you have one of the cars without a urea injection system fuel economy would go way down and the emissions system wouldn't last trying to burn off more pollutants and fuel that it was designed to handle. I don't know how VW or owners will be able to keep those cars on the road unless the EPA lets VW buy their way out with pollution fines? Later models with the urea injection system will probably be serviceable and not lose as much performance if the EPA can come to an agreement with VW which seems more likely with those models.

What happens if Wyoming or Iowa (states with lax inspection programs) let you keep a recalled car without updates licensed but Utah and California don't? That car is going to lose value immediately. Still lots of unanswered questions. I'm sure the lawyers are having a blast with this one.

[Nevada29er]

Wow. That is a lot of reading material. Good links. I've so many mixed feelings on this whole thing but I get frustrated when I read people try to play down diesel pollution as unimportant. It matters and companies playing by the rules should matter as well.

So what about pickup trucks? There are WAY more diesel pickups than cars, people drive them just like to cars to get groceries, soccer practice, etc. Shouldn't pickups have to comply with the same regs as cars? They're putting out WAY more emissions, both due to larger engines, heavier weight, and lower standards. Not a level playing field..

[XXX-er]

There are far too many diesels for Europe to banish diesel cars even in the next 20+ years as that would be mean people would have to buy a new(er) vehicle or at least another one. Sure, maybe in some cities(proper area) but not across the board. Like here, when people say, Oh! Electric cars are coming soon and automation etc. Well, that is all great except look at the number of cars on the road that are 10+ years old because people can't afford a new or even 1-5year old cars. It is the same in Europe, unless you live in Baden-Würtemmberg, DE where everyone is rich driving new Audi/BMW/Benz whatever. According to Popular Mechanics..Europe's diesel market makes up for 50% of total cars(first google search item). Yeah..good luck putting a ban on that unless you offer some incentive/buy out for people to go from diesel>petrol which I have no idea where EU would get the funds for that across the board. I'm just looking at this objectively, because to be honest, I don't care about the emissions stuff(I know I should). They aren't just going to ban diesels anytime soon when 1/2 of total cars are diesel. Certain EU leaders might be saying bans..but just go to every car manufacturers website that ends with .de, even if you can't sprechen Sie, the majority of new cars are still rolling out with diesel motors, and advertising them(just look up BMW.de, 3 series or whatever). To say they are moving away soon, currently, is like saying here in 'Murica we are moving away from the internal combustion motor soon.
In short: The proletariat's aren't going to be getting rid of their used cars anytime soon, nor can afford to. The industry isn't trying their hardest for efficient vehicles whether petrol or diesel because that would mean other industry's are going to lose $.

This^^

bike touring in France 2007 & Spain 2012 I watched a lot of cars go by and IME 9 out of 10 were diesel, all the cheaper cars the Renault, Citroen, Skoda, SEAT, BMW 3 & 4 series, Audi A3 & A4 were diesel the few high end BMW/Audi/Mercedes you see would be on gas

as for diesel in America I don't think the country is set up to burn Diesel, refineries couldn't make enough altho I have heard whatever they make gets shipped oversea's?

[uglymoney]

So what about pickup trucks? There are WAY more diesel pickups than cars, people drive them just like to cars to get groceries, soccer practice, etc. Shouldn't pickups have to comply with the same regs as cars? They're putting out WAY more emissions, both due to larger engines, heavier weight, and lower standards. Not a level playing field..

The EPA's tiered system does allow more emissions in heavier vehicles but I don't know how they compare to cheater VW'S in the states or how a Chevy Colorado diesel compares to a Chevy Cruz diesel. I know most heavy trucks made since 08 have huge urea injection and emissions systems and they shut down and stop the minute anything fails. Has anyone done the research and given us a comparo we can understand? An engine hauling 80k lbs should be able to emit more than a car but with pickups being used by house moms it does get blurry. Seems like an important issue.

In Yurp trucks and buses are much cleaner than cars since they bent over backwards to encourage people to drive diesels. That seems even more ridiculous than our situation. http://www.theguardian.com/environme...s-data-reveals

[LightRanger]

^^^ Another good link.

I agree that it is not at all an easy issue. Shit, I was excited for a long time when Mazda was talking about bringing the CX-5 with the 2.2L diesel to the U.S. What's not to like? AWD, torque, mileage, etc. Then it didn't happen, excuse being that they were unsatisfied with its performance when it met emissions standards. Once the VW cheating dropped, now we know why. I think I saw a quote from a GM source a few months back that said they assumed VW had to be cheating because nobody else could figure out how they met the standards without urea injection.

Light truck standards are an issue too. Seems like there's a lot of family cars that are able to pollute more than they should because of those standards--though that's changing as CAFE standards continue to tighten.

I also empathize with folks who live in rural areas where smog and NOx emissions aren't as much of a problem. But it's pretty disingenuous to say "diesels pollute less because they emit less carbon," but then see a link like the one above. People die of respiratory diseases caused or made worse by particulate and NOx emissions. And it's hard (read: impossible) to have two enforceable sets of air pollution standards--one for urban/suburban areas and one for rural. That's why Europe will (slowly but surely) move away from diesels, and why they're largely not as promising here as they seemed even several years ago. Maybe there's some magical new tech that'll make them that much cleaner, but it sure doesn't seem like it at this point.