Colorado Resorts Avalanche Liability

[summit]

People should not be dying inbounds by avalanches. I hate lawsuits and usually side with resorts but in this case resorts need to be told that it is their responsibility to manage avalanches inbounds. If this means an extra half day or day before dropping the ropes then so be it.

Resorts do mitigate. There are no guarantees in life. Bad things happen to good people. If you want 100% safety then stay on your couch and die of heart disease. If you need the resort to give a 100% guarantee, then they'll just rope it all off. They did rope it off in one of these cases.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Those of you have believe the ski area should be 100% responsible for mitigating every possible avalanche hazard should stick to scarfing cinnabons at the mall. There is a big grey area between, do nothing and mitigate all hazards.

Shit happens, the question is whether patrols/mountain management is following best practices and protocols. Should CDOT be 100% responsible for making sure the road cuts never slide? Should Salomon be 100% responsible for ensuring that you binding does/does not release at the exact right time? Should Toyota be 100% responsible for the safety of your Forerunner?

If you start applying that standard to the rest of your life, you'll never leave the house. Then the toaster will git ya and you'll be dead. It's a risky fuckin' sport. If you don't like it, don't go.

Below is a pic on the incident site. Basically, a small pocket in the trees of which there are literally hundreds at the Jane. "Mitigation" on the day in question would have entailed closing a large percentage of the ski area.

[TBS]

This might sound crazy but I think it'd be great if they required beacons for the first hour after rope drops. Fewer peeps clogging up the pow lines. They could then argue that it's not technically "open" and would give them a chance to dig you out if the slope did slide.

Ever done a beacon drill where somebody didn't switch to receive mode? Now extrapolate that to an inbounds burial with a bunch of people still in receive mode, and think again about the wisdom of your proposal

[skifishbum]

Stump n Schmidt ftw



resort suers and namby pambies who want a risk not responsible for your own actions and decisions free experience on mother natures terms and home court and their legal council for the should be shot muther fuckin loss

[Bunion 2020]

Those of you that believe the ski area should be 100% responsible for mitigating every possible avalanche hazard have no clue what that means or what it would take, let alone what goes into getting a mountain open on a snow day

FIFY.

But, most (not all) of these types of in bounds incidents occur early in the season and often when terrain is opened for the 1st time.

So if you want to be really safe, don't ski early season conditions, and don't ride lifts before noon on a powder day. Then the odds are in your favor.

[Benny Profane]

Wait. Really. How many avi deaths have happened inbounds in the last twenty years?

[adrenalated]

Without looking, probably a dozen-ish in the US? Maybe a few more. Assuming we're talking about the public on open runs, not patrollers, poachers, etc.

[MTT]

I am sure Colorado will have 100 percent safe resorts at some point. Looking for all green groomed runs and mandatory bubble wrap.

[FluffyLilKitten]

Wait. Really. How many avi deaths have happened inbounds in the last twenty years?

Don't keep track but I have been here in Las Vegas where a 13yo boy died from an inbounds avalanche here in Las Vegas (many others were buried) and when I was at Snowbird skiing 6 years ago a 20yo girl was buried and killed by an avalanche inbounds the day I was skiing there.

No one is saying resorts are %100 responsible for safety on their mountain (nice way to exaggerate the argument) but they shouldn't be %100 immune either. You skiing recklessly into a tree and killing yourself, and some little boy being wiped off a green switchback from a massive avalanche are two different things. Resorts should be put on notice that they should be responsible for their snowpack inbounds. Everyone assumes a certain level of safety when they are inbounds. This is not Europe.

[neufox47]

This is not Europe.

Be a lot cooler if it was.

[raisingarizona13]

In bounds avalanche deaths have become more common over the last 20 years or so I believe. At least that's been my observation, I think it's because of the fact that over the last 20 or so years there has been a lot more pressure on ski areas by the market to have more challenging terrain offered, this is also why the industry wording has changed from control to mitigation. There were a few years were there were several high profile in bounds avie deaths and then they changed the wording for the work. Obviously the word control would suggest it's just that but it's not. Here is the deal, if people want that kind of terrain and have it with deep fresh snow there is only so much ski patrol can do during the day or during storm conditions. Heck, there are times where terrain has been blown to shit only to release under a skier later in the day. There is also seasons where snowpacks are so moody and unpredictable it would be impossible to open the area at all and be 100%.

My thoughts are ya it's not Europe and Americans tend to expect things to be safe but maybe that's our problem. Guys like fluffy kitty want to be taken care of and not to worry about risk but maybe that's the kind of thinking that is dumbing down and pussifying the American population. As much as people like to think of ski areas to be controlled and safe the real mountains don't give a shit if you string some lifts up, groom some slopes, chuck some bombs, and put up ropes and lodges because in the end the mountains always win and under the right circumstances can't be controlled.

That incident at the Vegas area was during the winter of 2005, what a year! He was blasted right off the chair. I have a feeling that the people that designed the ski runs and lift placements have no experience dealing with avalanche terrain and before that accident neither did the patrol. I might be wrong about the patrol but there is no way in hell anyone knowing what that huge avie path can do would put the lift where they did. It's kind of ridiculous, they put the top terminal of one of there chairs at the tow end of the deposition zone!

OT: If we get a big year I really want to get over there and do some touring, that place looks like it would be really fun with some good snow.

Edit: One more thing, most people that know there way around mountains beep when skiing/riding in bounds on the really big days at places like Snowbird or Jackson. Why not right?

[raisingarizona13]

Be a lot cooler if it was.

Exactly.

[Bunion 2020]

Resorts should be put on notice that they should be responsible for their snowpack inbounds.

And you think that is something that any ski area with avalanche potential is not acutely aware of already?

[Benny Profane]

Be a lot cooler if it was.

Maybe, but you wouldn't understand what anyone was saying. And gas would be really expensive.

[FatChance]

The slide that buried me about 32 years ago in Parsenn Bowl happened in what is now in-bounds at Mary Jane. Of course, they now do a pretty good job of "mitigating" avalanche conditions there, but this is what that area is capable of.

[doebedoe]

Ever done a beacon drill where somebody didn't switch to receive mode? Now extrapolate that to an inbounds burial with a bunch of people still in receive mode, and think again about the wisdom of your proposal

Fair enough, however there are places that currently do as @GPP33 suggested and require first hour skiers to have a beacon on in certain terrain and conditions -- Crested Butte's expert terrain comes to mind. While owning and wearing a beacon doesn't make you safe/knowledgeable automatically, I bet that people who have a beacon are generally more informed about what avalanche terrain, travel and rescue than the general population trying to ski steep, inbounds, powder early in the morning. Your chances of quickly finding a burial of someone with a beacon on with a bunch of people who could be in receive mode are probably still better than finding the same person quickly without a beacon at all.

The slide that buried me about 32 years ago in Parsenn Bowl happened in what is now in-bounds at Mary Jane. Of course, they now do a pretty good job of "mitigating" avalanche conditions there, but this is what that area is capable of.

Wild. Great photo thanks for sharing.

[raisingarizona13]

Maybe, but you wouldn't understand what anyone was saying. And gas would be really expensive.

A lot more beer farts on trams too. Ugh.

[media310]

People should not be dying inbounds by avalanches. I hate lawsuits and usually side with resorts but in this case resorts need to be told that it is their responsibility to manage avalanches inbounds. If this means an extra half day or day before dropping the ropes then so be it.

what he said... imagine your kids are ripping around the mountain and boom and avalanche. Its one thing if they are in the backcountry, another all together if they are riding at a resort.

[goldengatestinx]

In bounds avalanche deaths have become more common over the last 20 years or so I believe. At least that's been my observation, I think it's because of the fact that over the last 20 or so years there has been a lot more pressure on ski areas by the market to have more challenging terrain offered, this is also why the industry wording has changed from control to mitigation. There were a few years were there were several high profile in bounds avie deaths and then they changed the wording for the work. Obviously the word control would suggest it's just that but it's not. Here is the deal, if people want that kind of terrain and have it with deep fresh snow there is only so much ski patrol can do during the day or during storm conditions. Heck, there are times where terrain has been blown to shit only to release under a skier later in the day. There is also seasons where snowpacks are so moody and unpredictable it would be impossible to open the area at all and be 100%.

My thoughts are ya it's not Europe and Americans tend to expect things to be safe but maybe that's our problem. Guys like fluffy kitty want to be taken care of and not to worry about risk but maybe that's the kind of thinking that is dumbing down and pussifying the American population. As much as people like to think of ski areas to be controlled and safe the real mountains don't give a shit if you string some lifts up, groom some slopes, chuck some bombs, and put up ropes and lodges because in the end the mountains always win and under the right circumstances can't be controlled.

That incident at the Vegas area was during the winter of 2005, what a year! He was blasted right off the chair. I have a feeling that the people that designed the ski runs and lift placements have no experience dealing with avalanche terrain and before that accident neither did the patrol. I might be wrong about the patrol but there is no way in hell anyone knowing what that huge avie path can do would put the lift where they did. It's kind of ridiculous, they put the top terminal of one of there chairs at the tow end of the deposition zone!

OT: If we get a big year I really want to get over there and do some touring, that place looks like it would be really fun with some good snow.

Edit: One more thing, most people that know there way around mountains beep when skiing/riding in bounds on the really big days at places like Snowbird or Jackson. Why not right?

Or does it simply seem like there are many more inbounds avi deaths...reading it on your smart phone, laptop, desktop, listening on TV and radio do not make them 5 times more prevalent...though it seems like the case. The media hype the hell out of everything making things appear more dangerous and prevalent than they really are.

[raisingarizona13]

Check out the warning about the potential for inbounds slides on the Eldora trail map page http://www.eldora.com/mountain.trail.html

[raisingarizona13]

Or does it simply seem like there are many more inbounds avi deaths...reading it on your smart phone, laptop, desktop, listening on TV and radio do not make them 5 times more prevalent...though it seems like the case. The media hype the hell out of everything making things appear more dangerous and prevalent than they really are.

There is definitely some truth to that. I'm still pretty sure there was a spike during the mid 2000's though. Or there was a couple of seasons with quite a few. I was told that Jackson changed the way they open terrain when things are a little questionable. I bet Wally's death had something to do with that. Back in the late 90's and early 2000's when I lived there one of my favorite aspects of that mountain was how everything was opened right when the first tram loaded.

[old goat]

Don't keep track but I have been here in Las Vegas where a 13yo boy died from an inbounds avalanche here in Las Vegas (many others were buried) and when I was at Snowbird skiing 6 years ago a 20yo girl was buried and killed by an avalanche inbounds the day I was skiing there.

No one is saying resorts are %100 responsible for safety on their mountain (nice way to exaggerate the argument) but they shouldn't be %100 immune either. You skiing recklessly into a tree and killing yourself, and some little boy being wiped off a green switchback from a massive avalanche are two different things. Resorts should be put on notice that they should be responsible for their snowpack inbounds. Everyone assumes a certain level of safety when they are inbounds. This is not Europe.

It's easy to avoid the miniscule risks of dying in an inbound avalanche--stay home on powder days. We'd all appreciate it. It's a personal choice and I have no interest in you trying to protect me or anybody else other than yourself and your family. Now I would like to see some kind of avalanche warning at the ticket window and on any lift that accesses terrain with the slightest chance of sliding--not because the number of deaths justify it but because it will keep the whiners, gapers, and other assorted undesirables away. A beacon restriction would be even better. All day. The PCS off of Red Dog a few years ago happened fairly late in the day, on a run that had been heavily skied. It would be like the days before shaped skis when powder skiing wasn't a competitive sport.

In bounds avalanche deaths have become more common over the last 20 years or so I believe. At least that's been my observation

Can you back that up with numbers?

I certainly haven't noticed any change in terrain opening policies in the 50 years I've been skiing, just a whole lot more people going after powder. Other than that I agree with you.

[Benny Profane]

Can you back that up with numbers?

I certainly haven't noticed any change in terrain opening policies in the 50 years I've been skiing, just a whole lot more people going after powder.

Word.

I think data should be designated PGS (pre Google search) and, AGS, (after Google search). Many have to chill and realize that the actual collection of data, and, more important, the dissemination of that data is off the charts accelerating. And data is food for fantasy in the media.

[GPP33]

Fair enough, however there are places that currently do as @GPP33 suggested and require first hour skiers to have a beacon on in certain terrain and conditions -- Crested Butte's expert terrain comes to mind. While owning and wearing a beacon doesn't make you safe/knowledgeable automatically, I bet that people who have a beacon are generally more informed about what avalanche terrain, travel and rescue than the general population trying to ski steep, inbounds, powder early in the morning. Your chances of quickly finding a burial of someone with a beacon on with a bunch of people who could be in receive mode are probably still better than finding the same person quickly without a beacon

Exactly. I'd rather deal with a few minutes of getting everyone in the area to turn thier beacons to search than have to get everyone to form a probe line. If I was under the snow I'd still prefer the former. It would be frustrating none the less though, in the heat of the moment even well trained people would be likely to forget.

[skifishbum]

#protectyourselfatalltimes