quiver killer insert question

[firenurse3922]

This has probably already been covered, so if you know a post please let me know. This summer i bought a pair of Empires' in 127, the plan was to put inserts in them for Dynafit Radical Ft so I can swap them out with my converts ( i also have the smaller brakes). But I was hoping to also be able to put inserts in for an AT boot compatable alpine binding. Does anyone know of such a binding that I can buy that wont be too close or otherwise interfere with the Dynafit inserts. I'm sure someone on here has a pair of skis with both tech and alpine inserts... which ones worked great and which ones should I stay away from?

[galibier_numero_un]

The best solution would be to:

• Look at your possible range of boot sole lengths, in terms of future-proofing your mount for other boots as well as the potential for differing BSLs between your touring and inbounds boots
• Compare the mounting templates for the Radicals with the Marker Lord & Salomon Warden.

Since both the Marker & Salomon have a reasonably long heel track adjustment, you can likely play with the location of the heel unit to easily avoid colliding with the Radical heels, leaving the only question at the toe.

If you can locate the holes 1cm apart, you'll be bomber with Quiver Killers. I've located QK inserts so they are .25cm (edge to edge) & been fine, but I wouldn't categorically state this is possible for everyone and every ski.

Templates for tech bindings are at Wildsnow (Dynafit etc.) as well as here (where you can also find templates for Marker/Salomon/others): http://www.powderguide.com/community...tx_mmforum_pi1



Cheers,
Thom

[1000-oaks]

I haven't drilled them together, but expect Warden and Ion would fit well. The toe holes shouldn't have any issues (the rear Ion holes will be behind the rear Warden holes, and the front Warden holes will be ahead of the front Ion holes), and as Thom said both heels have lots of adjustment range so they could be moved forward or back if necessary to avoid conflict.

It's the Ion and the STH/STH2 toes that don't play well together, unless you share front holes and mount the Solis 4.5mm back. It's tricky to do though.

[firenurse3922]

Well that about solves that. Thanks.

[sethschmautz]

Lords and Radicals are really close. I'm currently using markerfit plates, but BF has discontinued them. So...I may have to go this route anyway in the near future. Good luck, and post back with what you decided to do.

[skifishbum]

most of us don't use quiver killers
their cheap knockoffs
of a maggots jondrums binding freedom inserts
and the binding templates are there too
support maggots ftw

[galibier_numero_un]

I like maggots as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call Quiver Killers a cheap knockoff, but rather a slightly different approach from jondrum's excellent Binding Freedom products.

Perhaps there's some history I'm unaware of, but as far as knockoffs, one could say that both are knockoffs from snowboard technology.

On paper, the Binding Freedom rules, but I can't get the slotted insertion out of my head.

Quiver Killer:

• No insertion slot. I find this to be a plus. Maybe it's all in my head, but it's easier (for me) to verify that I've filled all the voids with epoxy.

Binding Freedom:

• Great screws with posi-drive heads and the little "grippy teeth" (technical term).
• Rolled threads - in practice, is the thread the weakest link in the chain so as to confer a real world strength advantage (insert to ski as well as screw to insert)?
• Insert is a touch longer, but not by a full thread. Slightly better grip.

Cheers,
Thom

[skifishbum]

search jong
if you knew your history
youd know were we're coming from
if you knew the history
youd be a maggot
ya wouldn't be a stupid jong who
thinks his posts are a letter
fuck off,
dibs

[LightRanger]

What SFB said. There's history.

QKs were jondrums' (who created BF) design. The design was taken from him and then commercialized. Didn't go down well, and the dude who did it no longer posts here.

Also, GNU, you're the only one I know who doesn't like the slots.

[eskido]

Everyone likes slots

[galibier_numero_un]

SFB - I miss you too.

Ranger - Thanks for the history. I've been on the wrong and of a deal like that, and it's not pleasant.

As far as the slots are concerned, I've found a pair of nuts locked onto a screw to work fine for insertion, but my main concern is in waterproofing.

I always flow a bit of extra epoxy so it overflows onto the surface of the ski. It's easier to wipe off the excess and keep out of the threads with an insert that has no slot. I'm comfortable not being in the majority ;-)

Cheers,
Thom

[skifishbum]

I like maggots as much as the next guy,

Cheers,
Thom

there are maggots and members of a community
and there is anonymous stokeless opinionated dipshits that post on tgr
and ifin ya didn't notice i like maggots more

[dschane]

I always flow a bit of extra epoxy so it overflows onto the surface of the ski. It's easier to wipe off the excess and keep out of the threads with an insert that has no slot.

Yes, a little overflowing epoxy is good. But no need to wipe the excess; just drop in one of those silicon plugs BF sells, and let it cure. You can remove the plug the next day and use a utility blade to trim back the cured epoxy. Water tight.

[galibier_numero_un]

Yes, a little overflowing epoxy is good. But no need to wipe the excess; just drop in one of those silicon plugs BF sells, and let it cure. You can remove the plug the next day and use a utility blade to trim back the cured epoxy. Water tight.

Brilliant in it's simplicity. Thanks dschane!

... Thom

[galibier_numero_un]

Does anyone know of such a binding that I can buy that wont be too close or otherwise interfere with the Dynafit inserts. I'm sure someone on here has a pair of skis with both tech and alpine inserts... which ones worked great and which ones should I stay away from?

Back to or originally scheduled programming ...

I took a look at a few of the Powderguide templates. You'll definitely be offsetting the toe location on either the Warden or your Radicals in order to get 1 to 1.5cm spacing between the rear set of holes on the toepiece (the holes closest to the back of the ski). I haven't checked the Lord.

When you go through this exercise, pay close attention to the PowderGuide templates. On their tech binding templates, they state that the toe of the boot is 15mm in front of the centerline of the pins. Be aware of your particular boot and which line you're referencing to.

Going back and forth between Warden (references front edge of the boot) and Radical (references pin line), I think you'll be making a choice as to which binding you want to locate at the recommended position with the other one being either fore or aft by 1 to 1.5cm.

As an aside, I checked the Ion template, and it gives you 8mm more spacing (that much less difference between mounting position for either binding).

Bottom line - a test mount on a 2x4 is a good idea.

Cheers,
Thom

[1000-oaks]

IHMO, as long as the inserts are 100% clean (all cutting oil has been removed), you use good epoxy like Gflex, do a nice job cutting straight/tight 5/16" threads in the ski, and the ski isn't a featherweight / foam core touring ski, you're good to go even if the inserts are right next to each other. YMMV

I actually removed some inserts from a L138 and replaced them with 5/16" aluminum bolts (cut off after the epoxy set), so I can install new inserts that overlap and tap into about 25% of the threaded aluminum plugs. Not ideal (had no choice for the binding combo I wanted), but I don't think they'll pull out. That's a lot of thread in the ski, epoxied into one big "8" shaped chunk. As long as the chunk doesn't hinge between the plug and the insert, it should be solid.

[dschane]

IHMO, as long as the inserts are 100% clean (all cutting oil has been removed), you use good epoxy like Gflex, do a nice job cutting straight/tight 5/16" threads in the ski, and the ski isn't a featherweight / foam core touring ski, you're good to go even if the inserts are right next to each other.

That's been my experience too (using the Double Bubble blue label 24-hour stuff).

[galibier_numero_un]

I just drew the following up for the OP.

In retrospect, I need to come clean about the 1 to 1.5cm hole clearance I referenced in my previous post. I didn't want to generalize what I found to be true for myself. Me ... I don't break bindings, and I've located sets of inserts perhaps 2.5mm from each other and have been fine.

Since there are others who break bindings and regularly pull them out of skis, I felt uncomfortable making this a global recommendation, although I'd have to guess that the area with the inserts (properly sealed) is the strongest part of the ski. So, I'll acquiesce to dschane & 1000-oaks' comments as far as hole proximity and "bomber-ness" of mount.

The attached drawing overlays the Warden toe piece mounting pattern (the solid black holes) on top of that of the Radical 1.0 (the "clear" holes).

The Warden was positioned with respect to the front edge of the boot (the way you'd locate and mount any alpine boot), but I also added the 4mm dimension to call out that I measure the Dyna inserts to be 11mm from the front of the boot (not the 15mm PowderGuide says with their caveat to check).

PowderGuide called out the correct distance from pins to rear holes: 13.25mm however. I verified against a pair of Verticals I have on hand and located the holes using this number.

If you're using a PowderGuide template, I recommend locating them to either the front of the boot (Warden) or boot's pin-location (tech binders). They try to make it easy for you by drawing the template so you can position it from the center point (BSL markings on the template), but as they say in their warning, let the pins be the guide.

With those caveats, here ya go, and as always ... trust, but verify .. I ain't perfect


Cheers,
Thom

[hnnaum]

I post here because don't wont to open new thread..
Can I use Quiver Killers tool kit (step drill bit and bottom tap) for Binding Freedom inserts too?
Thank you

[Spyderjon]

I post here because don't wont to open new thread..
Can I use Quiver Killers tool kit (step drill bit and bottom tap) for Binding Freedom inserts too?
Thank you

Yep

[hnnaum]

Thanks, buy QK because don't know about BF, but BF looks longer and is cheaper..

[dschane]

You can get it all from Binding Freedom:

http://www.bindingfreedom.com/

But yeah, the drill bit and tap are the same.

[Hendy.27]

Just curious if many use QK's with their AT set ups? I recently moved my Ion's from my older beat up skis to some newer voile's this season. I want to continue to use my old skis as rock skis for early/late season touring. Was thinking QK's could be a good option. I asked a few buddies and none of them have used QK's with their touring setups. Are there any disadvantages?

Thanks in advance.

[mooseknuckles]

I have multiple pairs drilled for alpine and AT. I have BF, not QK but I just toss on the AT bindings and go. Not sure what disadvantages you would be referring to as they tour just the same. At my size, I am not concerned with the added weight of the inserts...if that’s what you are worried about.

[jacket]

I have used touring bindings on Binding Freedom inserts, I don't know why there would be any issue. An insert mount is probably stronger than a traditional mount.


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