Khion vs Merc vs Vulcan vs Mtn Lab vs Maestrale RS

[kootenayskier]

Went from Titans, to Titan ULs, to Mercuries. Was able to move my Intuition alpine wrap liners over without re-moulding. Mercuries provide similar fit and skiing performance (tongue in, bump stops ground off) but at a little lighter lighter weight, and with superior touring stride (tongues removed, otherwise similar). Vulcans flex way to stiff for every owner I've met, and they all seem to ski them without tongues. Flexing into the tongues (bump stops removed) on the Mercuries is a welcome sensation for anyone coming from Raichle / Full Tilt style boots. Swapping the tongues in and out is an extra step, but is fast and easy when you get it dialled, and you can leave them in for shorter, slower or easier climbs, where the the extra stride isn't necessary.

[XavierD]

What about getting Alpine boots with Alpine bindings for resort skiing?

Unless you are consistently going 500-1500ft out of the resort, I don't see the point. At least around here most of the side country either requires or is easily accessed by bootpacking anyway.

[1000-oaks]

But really, I think the best plan for me is to mount the beast heel insert on my Cochise 130, use a pro tour liner for touring days and a powerwrap or HD race for inbounds and continue the sole block swap routine.

After they arrive, I'm going to see if it's possible to mill off a few millimeters of the tech toe sole to bring it down to DIN height. If there's still rubber at the DIN thickness, might have to mill deeper and screw on a new nylon or PU toe pad (similar to how CAST does it).

[swissiphic]

Flexing into the tongues (bump stops removed) on the Mercuries is a welcome sensation for anyone coming from Raichle / Full Tilt style boots.

kootenayskier; just curious if you compared tongue liners (stock or intuition?) with the powerwrap liners for skiing the Mercs with flex stops ground off? I waited for absolutely the most challenging conditions for boot forward stiffness support before experimenting with temporarily bypassing the flex stops while skiing in stock liners. In deep fresh rain wetted punchy coastal snow with lots of undulations and features, I found the boots collapsed in forward flex with stock liners without tongues and had a 'negative' progression of forward flex with tongues while testing with heavy pack. Restored flex stop normal function for fear of breaking the boot. Curious if the powerwraps might be the ticket for that extra bump in forward flex/support tweaking.

[kootenayskier]

kootenayskier; just curious if you compared tongue liners (stock or intuition?) with the powerwrap liners for skiing the Mercs with flex stops ground off? I waited for absolutely the most challenging conditions for boot forward stiffness support before experimenting with temporarily bypassing the flex stops while skiing in stock liners. In deep fresh rain wetted punchy coastal snow with lots of undulations and features, I found the boots collapsed in forward flex with stock liners without tongues and had a 'negative' progression of forward flex with tongues while testing with heavy pack. Restored flex stop normal function for fear of breaking the boot. Curious if the powerwraps might be the ticket for that extra bump in forward flex/support tweaking.

I didn't try them with tongue liners for anything other than walking around the house, as I need the extra volume and precise feel that the intuition alpine wraps provide. I skied them for a while with the bump stops, but wasn't liking the "hinged" and on/off quality to the flex. Skiing them without the bump stops instantly felt more agreeable. I've skied them hard in all conditions, and with a multi-day pack, without ever feeling they're too soft, but I'm only 175 lbs, and my technique comes from 30 years powder skiing in Raichle Flexons with medium tongues, rather than stiff overlap boots, so your experience may vary. Power wraps would definitely stiffen them up.

[XXX-er]

got mercs and vulcans, IME the merc is a pretty well balanced nice boot i could recommend to any tourer /hill skier whom they fit, in comparison the vulcan is crazy stiff BUT while I will want to swap tongues for the down in the merc with the vulcan I can leave the tongues at home for the BC instead of doing the swap, still be plenty stiff, have more rom than using the tongues, swap the tongues in for the hill and the Vulcan will be STIFF, I can also phuck with 2 sizes of those bolt in cuff stops or leave them out ... lots of things to play with

[sethschmautz]

I'm in the same shoes as XXX_er, well, boots anyway. I bought the first gen Vulcans that don't have the bump stops. The flex is much more progressive (to me) than what is described by others. I tour without tongues and put the tongues in for resort skiing only. I went this direction to consolidate systems so I could ski in the resort and tour with much of the same gear.

Bindings-wise, I'm splitting between speed radicals and Lord SPs, although I think that the perfect setup might be Beasts. I notice a big difference in ski performance (and confidence) in my Lords vs. Radicals. So right now, I'm running Markerfits and either Speed Radicals or Lords. However, doing a quick weight check, I think that I'd gain about .35 pounds by switching the entire set up to Beast 14s. But I digress...

For me, the Vulcans are a really great one boot quiver that skis really well inbounds (with tongues) and while touring (without).

[Kufo]

I'm looking for suggestions on which intuition liner most people use in the Vulcans?

Also wondering to ground or not to ground the bump stops off?

[adrenalated]

I'm looking for suggestions on which intuition liner most people use in the Vulcans?

Also wondering to ground or not to ground the bump stops off?

A tongue liner will tour better than a wrap liner. A wrap liner will be stiffer. Beyond that, just pick the volume/stiffness/features you like. Personally, I put the Pro Tour in my touring boots.

Ski the boots first before grinding off the bump stops. You can always grind 'em off later, but you can't un-grind them.

[sethschmautz]

I tried on Mercuries/Vulcans in the store with the stock liners vs. my Powerwraps. The powerwraps were much stiffer, but ROM/flexibility for touring felt about 15-20% less than stock liner. Stiffness felt about 10-15% better with Powerwraps. When I bought my Vulcans, I bought Pro Tours. ROM/flexibility feels about 10% better than stock liners and stiffness about 5% better than stock. This is, of course, very unscientific.

I wouldn't grind off the bumps either. If you're really curious, figure out a way for the cuff to bypass the stops and ski them both ways.

[SupreChicken]

After they arrive, I'm going to see if it's possible to mill off a few millimeters of the tech toe sole to bring it down to DIN height. If there's still rubber at the DIN thickness, might have to mill deeper and screw on a new nylon or PU toe pad (similar to how CAST does it).

Holy shit. Please do this, then send me a tutorial how. I've already sanded the tech sole to din thickness. Great for CAST/p18, but I was terrified of falling with a rubber sole contact point in the toe. Not sure how to add a PU toe pad...but I want to know how. Then maybe only swap the heel pieces...

[SupreChicken]

What about getting Alpine boots with Alpine bindings for resort skiing?

Unless you are consistently going 500-1500ft out of the resort, I don't see the point. At least around here most of the side country either requires or is easily accessed by bootpacking anyway.

I'm guessing this is for me.

I often like the skinning option at my home mtn because I do go more than 500 ft OB often enough. I also just haven't found the right alpine boot. Auvgeek has some krypton pros worth checking out. I did not tolerate scorpions.

For my inbounds riding the past three seasons, I've been happy with the Cochise and unhappy with the alpine boots I've tried. Never felt like I needed more boot than Cochise/HD race even tossing a 191 BG around in bumps...

[1000-oaks]

Holy shit. Please do this, then send me a tutorial how. I've already sanded the tech sole to din thickness. Great for CAST/p18, but I was terrified of falling with a rubber sole contact point in the toe. Not sure how to add a PU toe pad...but I want to know how. Then maybe only swap the heel pieces...

It would definitely require a mill, and some research to figure out the best type of plastic for the job, probably Delrin or nylon due to wear and impact resistance. (If making the effort, might as well do it right.) Don't know why Tecnica doesn't offer DIN height soles with tech inserts. K2 made it work.

[XavierD]

Wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. Just more the idea that we happily justify 3-6 pairs of skis all over 105mm, yet are still trying to hunt down that one 'do it all' boot. Everyone seems to have no problem excepting the limitations of skis with regards to doing everything perfectly, yet turns around a bitches if a cross over boot doesn't tour or walk as well as a TLT or ski as hard as a Doberman.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. Just more the idea that we happily justify 3-6 pairs of skis all over 105mm, yet are still trying to hunt down that one 'do it all' boot. Everyone seems to have no problem excepting the limitations of skis with regards to doing everything perfectly, yet turns around a bitches if a cross over boot doesn't tour or walk as well as a TLT or ski as hard as a Doberman.

Some people talk about how they prefer a quiver of one because they have a hard time adjusting technique when they switch between different skis. That's how I feel about boots. Coming off Alpine boots touring boots feel rickety. Coming from AT, Alpine boots feel clunky. I've tried several combinations, but I keep coming back to Maestrale RS's for everything. They fit perfectly with a little boot work, so that helps. Switching between skis doesn't bother me at all however.

[kootenayskier]

Wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. Just more the idea that we happily justify 3-6 pairs of skis all over 105mm, yet are still trying to hunt down that one 'do it all' boot. Everyone seems to have no problem excepting the limitations of skis with regards to doing everything perfectly, yet turns around a bitches if a cross over boot doesn't tour or walk as well as a TLT or ski as hard as a Doberman.

I've tried the one setup for everything program, and it is satisfying/impressive in the same way that telemarking/vegetarianism/tiny housing etc can be, but for living in the mountains (as opposed to a casual skier or traveller) having dedicated and distinct resort and touring setups allows each to be more specialized, and therefore higher performing or easier depending on your focus. Riding a lift and breaking trail in deep snow are different.

[gregL]

Ski the boots first before grinding off the bump stops. You can always grind 'em off later, but you can't un-grind them.

The Vulcan stops are riveted to the carbon cuff, not molded in like the Mercury, so you could probably re-rivet them.

[gregL]

I've tried the one setup for everything program, and it is satisfying/impressive in the same way that telemarking/vegetarianism/tiny housing etc can be, but for living in the mountains (as opposed to a casual skier or traveller) having dedicated and distinct resort and touring setups allows each to be more specialized, and therefore higher performing or easier depending on your focus. Riding a lift and breaking trail in deep snow are different.

I'm with Kootenay on this - I tried using one boot for everything for several years and am back to alpine boots and bindings for resort and pure touring boots/tech bindings for touring. To me, the difference in flex isn't such a big deal - I keep reminding myself that part of being a good skier is adaptability.

[westoxified]

Don't know why Tecnica doesn't offer DIN height soles with tech inserts. K2 made it work.

Thing is, K2 didn't make it work. Unless they are writing ISO 5355 under the bootboard inside the shell, that green ain't certified.

[gregL]

Thing is, K2 didn't make it work. Unless they are writing ISO 5355 under the bootboard inside the shell, that green ain't certified.

ISO 5355 doesn't allow for any "break" in the sole surface where it interfaces the binding, but the K2 soles have "worked" perfectly for me in both alpine and tech bindings . . .

[Lindahl]

I rather like having one 'sort-of' do-it-all boot. When I'm skiing hard whether the backcountry, sidecountry or resort, I like to know how the boot is going to hold up to a drop, funky terrain or funky snow. Having many vertical put on a boot at the resort allows me to know exactly how it'll behave when I'm out of the resort. That said, I'm a big fan of owning a heavier alpine-like crossover boot and an ultra lightweight touring boot - but I tour in both and pick depending on the mission.

I'm with Kootenay on this - I tried using one boot for everything for several years and am back to alpine boots and bindings for resort and pure touring boots/tech bindings for touring. To me, the difference in flex isn't such a big deal - I keep reminding myself that part of being a good skier is adaptability.

Then what is the big deal, to you?

[sethschmautz]

For me, there has been an element of economy - I have a lot of interests, and I can easily hoard gear even when I'm careful. Quivers of skis, skins and boots get expensive. But more than this, I think for me it's more an issue of convenience. I have found myself riding lifts mostly to find untracked, and more often than not, this is slackcountry. Where I ski, the slackcountry requires, at minimum, a half mile boot pack up and out of a terrain trap, but better skiing can be had by going further with skins and touring gear.

Most days we'll combine these slackcountry runs in the middle of normal inbound skiing, and it's a pain to have to swap gear or limiting on where you can go if you don't.

I know... First world problems. But I've been very happy with my current setup with a one boot quiver and multiple skis.

I think Greg makes good points, though.

Seth

[gregL]

Then what is the big deal, to you?

Ramp, forward lean and quality of flex - all of which are somewhat adjustable.

[Lindahl]

Quality of flex is probably pretty hard to adjust, no? But yeah, ramp and forward lean are pretty adjustable.

[gregL]

Quality of flex is probably pretty hard to adjust, no?

Depends on the boot. On my Mercury removable tongues I lowered the height and cut a "V" in the middle to reduce the initial harshness of the flex without affecting the "crush" resistance.