Khion vs Merc vs Vulcan vs Mtn Lab vs Maestrale RS

**XXX-er** · 11-14-2015, 11:02 AM

Did they recall the tri-step or how about all those Rads that have shitty screws in the heel piece ...is Dynafit into product recall?

sf · 11-28-2015, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by aevergreene

Already bought the beast 14s. Hopefully the salomon mtn lab works, i emailed dynafit usa so we will see.

Did you ever get a reply from Dynafit on this? I asked a question over in the Beast-thread after I found out that my Beast-horseshoe didn't sit flush with the plastic on the heel. I have no idea if this matters or not.

**sfotex** · 11-28-2015, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by cascadescl

Scarpa F1 Evo's have a problem where the boot can switch into walk mode while skiing and they issue a world-wide recall of all the boots.

Yeah, but the evo's got jammed into the binding when this happened and the whole binding/boot system wouldn't release + they didn't have a fix for the problem.

**ScrewYou** · 11-28-2015, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by sf

Did you ever get a reply from Dynafit on this? I asked a question over in the Beast-thread after I found out that my Beast-horseshoe didn't sit flush with the plastic on the heel. I have no idea if this matters or not.

I never got a reply from Dynafit, but the ski tech had no problems with the heel piece. It all mounted up fine.

sf · 11-28-2015, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by aevergreene

I never got a reply from Dynafit, but i had no problems with the heel piece. It all mounted up fine.

Weird, my heel piece sits 1mm higher than the plastic edge.....

**ScrewYou** · 11-28-2015, 12:36 PM

Mine sits 1 or 2mm higher as well. Is that not how its supposed to be?

Release values are consistent and have no problems getting in or out of the binding.

**ScrewYou** · 11-28-2015, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by sf

Weird, my heel piece sits 1mm higher than the plastic edge.....

Quoted from blister, from Salomon:

“We have had one of our athletes using the [Beast – MTN Lab] setup, and our industrial design team has confirmed that there is no interference with the toe as there was on the older Quest Max BC. Our team in Annecy France is going to be testing out the heel soon to ensure it complies with our standards.

Update: The heel passes with the Beast. Keep in mind, the Beast’s boot-heel fitting modification prevents the MTN LAB from being certified for safety release with the Warden or any other multi-norm-compatible alpine binding. Said another way, the heel modification takes the boot out of the ISO 9523 norm.”

**XavierD** · 11-28-2015, 01:01 PM

If you are using the beast the plastic lip is irrelevant. If you aren't using the beast you shouldn't have the mod on in the first place.

**I've seen black diamonds!** · 11-28-2015, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by XavierD

If you are using the beast or other tech bindings, with the exception of Kingpins, the plastic lip is irrelevant. If you aren't using the beast you shouldn't have the mod on in the first place.

Fixed it?

**Lindahl** · 11-28-2015, 02:33 PM

Vipec ftw

sf · 11-28-2015, 02:53 PM

The last 3 years I've been skiing the Cochise Pro Light, changing between sole blocks. Changing sole block sucks almost as much as changing bindings back and forth between skis with inserts, which I've also done, so I've been looking at options for making my mornings easier. Last year I stopped changing the heel, and it's been fine in both fks/pivots and sth2.

My hope was that the Mtn Labs could be the boot that worked for sidecountry with Beasts, backcountry with Ft12s and maybe even inbounds with Wardens etc. I know that once you use the Beast insert Salomon say the boots are not ISO 9523 anymore, but my experience with the Cochise tech heel made me believe that I could have a 1 boot quiver, because I thought the heel inserts sat even with the plastic heel. And yes; I've had Dukes.....I want to avoid frame bindings in the future.

Originally Posted by aevergreene

Mine sits 1 or 2mm higher as well. Is that not how its supposed to be?

Well, that's the thing......I don't think so, but it might not matter. The few pics I've found on the internet has been of Dynafit boots and there the insert seems to sit even. I tested the insert on my Cochise heels, where they actually ended up sitting .5 mm below the the plastic edge. I'm not too concerned about this, but it seems to me that the two "prongs" on the Beast heel (not the pins) might catch on the heel insert when the boot releases laterally. The are somewhat flimsy, so I'm more concerned that they break, than worried that the bindings won't release.

Originally Posted by XavierD

If you are using the beast the plastic lip is irrelevant. If you aren't using the beast you shouldn't have the mod on in the first place.

Well, yes, except if 1) what I suggest above might be an issue, and 2) skiing them with Wardens with the heel insert poking up above the plastic is even "worse" than skiing them with the heel insert even with the plastic edge.

Unless someone with more experience and knowledge about bindings than me convinces me otherwise I think I might be left with two options 1) Labs for Dynas (if I assume that the heel/Beast isn't a problem) and something else for alpine, or 2) sell the Beasts and buy Kingpins for sidecountry. This solves all problems except from the fact that I wanted Beast 16s for their toe..... And no; I'm not going to use my trust fund on a Beast toe / Kingpin heel - setup

**Lindahl** · 11-28-2015, 03:19 PM

Dude. Way too many words. STH/CAST and pick a tech binding. And the Pro Light is garbage without an Intuition, so just get the Pro 130 instead at almost the same shell weight.

sf · 11-28-2015, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Lindahl

Dude. Way too many words. STH/CAST and pick a tech binding. And the Pro Light is garbage without an Intuition, so just get the Pro 130 instead at almost the same shell weight.

Haha, fair enough.....doesn't answer my question though. And yeah, I have Intuition Pro Tours in them. Still weigh in at almost 350g more pr boot than the Labs

**Andeh** · 11-30-2015, 03:35 PM

Just did 2 tours in a pair of Vulcans I bought used, and am kicking myself for not buying them earlier. As Lee said somewhere earlier in this thread, they fit people with flat, wide mid-feet without modification. Wayyyy more comfortable than both my extensively modified TLT6s, or my Maestrale RSs before that. I specifically got a used pair of 2014 models because the new 15/16s switched away from Grilamid and I was worried about still needing punches, but it turns out I wouldn't need it anyways.

TLDR: if you suffer from flat/wide feet, check out Vulcans. These are literally the first pair of boots I've ever owned that didn't require shell work to eliminate pain. Of course, the liner is still shit, but that's a small price to pay for comfort and performance.

**LeeLau** · 11-30-2015, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Andeh

Just did 2 tours in a pair of Vulcans I bought used, and am kicking myself for not buying them earlier. As Lee said somewhere earlier in this thread, they fit people with flat, wide mid-feet without modification. Wayyyy more comfortable than both my extensively modified TLT6s, or my Maestrale RSs before that. I specifically got a used pair of 2014 models because the new 15/16s switched away from Grilamid and I was worried about still needing punches, but it turns out I wouldn't need it anyways.

TLDR: if you suffer from flat/wide feet, check out Vulcans. These are literally the first pair of boots I've ever owned that didn't require shell work to eliminate pain. Of course, the liner is still shit, but that's a small price to pay for comfort and performance.

Good news is that Khions fit kind of like the Vulcans but with a bit more ankle hold. EDIT - I didn't punch them but have heard anecdotally that they will hold a punch

**sfotex** · 11-30-2015, 08:38 PM

Got 6 days on my Labs so far. 3 BC-3 resort (most of it has been on moderate terrain due to the low snowpack). I've been really happy so far. Been using the wardens inbounds and tech bindings in the BC. Love the flex and the simplicity of the boot. No problem driving fat skis on the man made ice. Touring is pretty good too. Not as good as a TLT6/Backland, but not bad either

**auvgeek** · 11-30-2015, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Andeh

Just did 2 tours in a pair of Vulcans I bought used, and am kicking myself for not buying them earlier. As Lee said somewhere earlier in this thread, they fit people with flat, wide mid-feet without modification. Wayyyy more comfortable than both my extensively modified TLT6s, or my Maestrale RSs before that. I specifically got a used pair of 2014 models because the new 15/16s switched away from Grilamid and I was worried about still needing punches, but it turns out I wouldn't need it anyways.

TLDR: if you suffer from flat/wide feet, check out Vulcans. These are literally the first pair of boots I've ever owned that didn't require shell work to eliminate pain. Of course, the liner is still shit, but that's a small price to pay for comfort and performance.

A different perspective: I need the Vulcans punched extensively all the way from the midfoot (styloid process) to the 3rd toe. Quite a bit of work needed to fit my flat, wide feet. And that's with an intuition race liner.

**swissiphic** · 11-30-2015, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by auvgeek

A different perspective: I need the Vulcans punched extensively all the way from the midfoot (styloid process) to the 3rd toe. Quite a bit of work needed to fit my flat, wide feet. And that's with an intuition race liner.

102/104mm forefoot and pretty wide midfoot. Same here for my Mercuries and now Solly Mtn labs; though with mtn labs focused punching on 5th metatarsal head and baby toe; seemed to have a bit more stock midfoot width for my foot. Then, had to C-clamp the liners for just a bit more at baby toes and bunions after punching; then, cut out sections there and replace with softer foam...the 'bath tub' shaped rubber outsole of liners that wraps up the side creates a seam that bit pinched baby toes on both stock liners. No cutting and foam re/re for intuition pro tours medium and luxury high volume foam; just C-clamping.

Got about a dozen days on the Mtn Labs and still fine tuning fit and forward lean. These babies are pretty stiff for my 180 lbs and find them a hair upright for some conditions due to minimal forward flex...tweaking with adding different thickness spoilers (beer coasters) to increase forward lean helped to find a more natural centered feel on various skis and sometimes moving the powerstrap by snugging it on liner instead of shell helps tweak the boot feel for difference snow and terrain requirements. Great power and snow feel on groomers; lots of support fore/lateral and rock solid aft. A bit different general stance angle feel than mercs though...more neutral and less 'bow legged' cuff lateral angle...results in, for me, a bit better inside ski edging feel on groomers and less outside ski aggresiveness for turn initiation at ski tip...makes skis feel a bit less hooky from the boot. Also noticeable in breakable rain crust turns; easier to more evenly edge/weight the skis for more predictable response; less hook from downhill ski...for the way the boots synergize with my anatomical foot/lower leg shape anyway. Nice to be able to really crank turns in difficult breakable crust with prit near zero boot deformation/collapse. Loosen the cuffs a bit for deep hero pow. I find touring in them more comfortable than my mercuries; a/b comparisons one on each foot forgot which was which most of the time with powerstraps loose, cuff buckles on loosest setting and open...remembered which was which during steep sidehilling on hard snow requiring cuff buckle closure for edging...quite a bit less forward rom with this setting requiring lower ascent angle...mercury was easy, just snug the powerstrap, still have a lot of forward rom and full edging power for these conditions. Stock liner on the Solly seems to be packing out a bit early in the heel...not much padding under foot for my sensitive feet, might have to add a layer of thin foam for more touring cushioning. Added the bontex shim to decrease internal volume a bit for better snugness for my flat wide pronated otherwise low volume foot. Duct taped blue foam into the holes where exposed inside ankle and navicular (?) hinge and rivet heads created pressure points on bones. Seems to have eliminated the problem. By far the greatest advantage of the boots the the lack of dicking around with spiderweb of wires buckles and tongues of the mercuries...super fast transitions with Sollies; leave the instep buckle closed so basically power strap and cuff buckle and flip the smooth switch from walk to rock. Insert Big Lebowski quote here; pull the trigger til it goes 'click'.

**gregL** · 11-30-2015, 10:37 PM

I found the MTN Lab's flex and stance to be right on straight out of the box, but needed big punches at the fifth and first met heads and a mild one at the medial midfoot. FWIW, I needed the same punches in the Mercury, not quite as much in the forefoot and more in the midfoot (plus chopping out the elastic/vinyl over the instep). The Grilamid is a pleasure to work with and stays where you punch it, though the top edge of the shell in the tongue area deforms a little when you punch the forefoot aggressively, effectively lowering the toe box:

http://randosaigai.com/mtn_lab111715_003.jpg

The MTN Lab requires more heat than a 2014-15 TLT6P to move the plastic (more like a Spectre) and the zeppa is quite heat resistant even though it looks like styrofoam.

I discovered that the limited forward range of cuff motion mentioned by others could be remedied by simply opening the power strap all the way (leaving about 1.5 inches in the buckle) and opening the top buckle all the way into tour mode - still not as good as a TLT6 or Backland Carbon, but not "almost zero" as others have mentioned either. I've gotten kind of lazy about opening everything up with the TLT6 because it wasn't necessary, but you need to take the time to do this with the Salomon. I also fashioned a DIY "Dynafit" power strap which helps speed this process:

http://randosaigai.com/DIYnafitstrap.jpg

**GeezerSteve** · 11-30-2015, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by gregL

http://randosaigai.com/DIYnafitstrap.jpg

clever

**foreal** · 12-03-2015, 12:35 AM

Blue pill taken.
Assessment after 7 touring days w intuition that was baked in Vulcan. A part of me has missed the Titans after to transitioning to Vulcan...but the weight to power ratio won out. Plastic of the Lab does seem to stiffen significantly in the cold vs carpet testing. Heel hold appears to not that of the Vulcan but re-molded Intuitions last night...will see. Really does ski much more alpine like and the increased dampness is welcomed. Too upright but easily remedied by installing Velcro and spoiler off old Lange liner. No more dicking around at transitions:-)

**afraid** · 12-03-2015, 01:35 PM

Gregl and Swissific, any experience with MTN Explore? My big toe always hits the front of boots, and my calves are skinny, so I'm torn between 27.5 and 28.5. Wondering if an extreme toe punch in the 27.5 would deform the black fabric-y thing. Looks like lower shell is the same grilamid as MTN Lab.

**turnfarmer** · 12-03-2015, 04:53 PM

Continuing with the touring power strap threadjack, I've been using a Voile strap on my TLT5s.
I wish it was my idea, but read about it somewhere, maybe Cold Thistle. Works great, easy to tighten/loosen and
is stretchy like a booster strap. Also super lightweight and cheap. I'm pretty sure Voile has a new wider, thicker version which would be a little beefier, want to look into it at some point. Maybe time for a new touring power strap thread?
Greg L's mod very cool!

**Lindahl** · 12-03-2015, 05:02 PM

I like the idea but feel like I'd lose a voile strap if I tried that. Would have to screw it into the back of the shell?

**swissiphic** · 12-03-2015, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by turnfarmer

Continuing with the touring power strap threadjack, I've been using a Voile strap on my TLT5s.
I wish it was my idea, but read about it somewhere, maybe Cold Thistle. Works great, easy to tighten/loosen and
is stretchy like a booster strap.

back in the day of super soft boots (dynafit tlt 4S) I used a voile ski strap as powerstrap and wrapped one around the ankle area in a vain attempt to prevent the boots from collapsing and bowing outward in challenging snow on skinny skis. Powerstrap was awesome, ankle reinforcement...fail, boots still folded like a snapping mousetrap. lol. Just got back from another day on the mtn labs...today's tweak; game changing success. In stock form felt the boot was too upright and i felt a bit 'behind the boot' just a hair backseat and not really feeling the flex. Installed a 10mm tall heel wedge under liner, replaced footbed with podiatrist made rigid custom orthotic for street shoes and voila...perfectly centered/balanced in boot while uphilling or downhilling, fold of ankle/shin fit tension felt correct and turns were made with full power from shin/ball of foot pressure. Skied some really junky coastal slop/breakable crust/refrozen cat track death cookie cutter stuff and nary a whimper or complaint from the boots...powered through it all without a hint of boot collapse/unwanted torquey flex or twitchiness....heel lifts for the win.