Khion vs Merc vs Vulcan vs Mtn Lab vs Maestrale RS

[LightRanger]

The stock Maestrale liner also has a generous and unnecessary amount of elastic over the instep that can contribute to pressure there. I'd say I ended up trimming some of it away on about 25% of the boots I sold (including my own).

Yeah, I may have chopped that at 10,000 feet on the side of Shasta in January. Rough day.

[babybear]

on-mountain boot modification is the worst

[Lindahl]

The shell has more space in the Maestrale. The liner out of the box is very thick though and it can feel lower volume to some before the liner is molded.

You sure? Pretty sure I tried em both with my own liners.

[Kufo]

I'm appreciating everyone's insight, replies, thoughts, discussion etc, thank you.

Clearly from what the majority say get what fits. Which will consist of spending some time in my local ski shop and also not finding a deal on boots, although my street shoe is size 10, my left foot is almost half a size smaller (at least so it feels). With my feet being such a common size most 27.0 etc are sold out. Any suggestions in terms of what sizing to look at? I've heard some people drop a half size sometimes too? I'm assuming because the boots will punch out a bit?

As for flex in comparison with all of these how important is it? I'm assuming the higher flex the faster response time essentially for your ski? Any other thoughts in terms of flex?

My initial desire was the Maestrale RS. Saving $300 vs vulcans and getting an intuition liner. Seems like this year Dynafit teamed up with boa in terms of liners.

I've been told or read somewhere the Khion is supposed to be stiffer than the Vulcan.

It's good to know someone with a ~103 mm last got into a mtn lab, although I do feel inclined to go with scarpa or dynafit as a personal preference based on it seems they've been doing "this" for a while.

The thought of spending $1k on boots is certainly a substantial investment, but with each piece costing approx $700 these days it's no surprise.

[gregL]

my street shoe is size 10, my left foot is almost half a size smaller (at least so it feels). With my feet being such a common size most 27.0 etc are sold out. Any suggestions in terms of what sizing to look at? I've heard some people drop a half size sometimes too? I'm assuming because the boots will punch out a bit?

Measure your feet (both of them); if you don't have access to a Brannock device put your heel against the wall and mark where your toe hits and measure the distance in centimeters. This is most likely the Mondopoint size that will give you an "average" fit. To be more precise you'll have to put your foot in the shell of the boot you're considering without the liner and do a shell fit - you'd probably do well to have a qualified bootfitter check the shell fit, but I typically fit people for touring boots with somewhere between 15mm and 30mm of space in back of your heel with your toe touching the front of the shell (I go smaller for alpine boots that you won't be skinning in). Your street shoe size doesn't necessarily mean much; many people wear street shoes too big for their feet and manage to walk fine, but skiing is different. There is also what people call a "performance" fit, which for most people is a full size smaller than they measure on the Brannock (ski boots don't come in half sizes - a 27.0 Maestrale and a 26.5 Maestrale use the same shell, for instance). Many expert skiers do this because they are convinced they will ski better in the smaller shell, the liner foam will pack out, and they know that boots can be modified by a skilled bootfitter.

As for flex in comparison with all of these how important is it? I'm assuming the higher flex the faster response time essentially for your ski? Any other thoughts in terms of flex

Stiffer flex = faster turning is old school thinking. Modern skis don't require tip pressure to initiate the turn. When transitioning to a softer touring boot, many experienced skiers find a "comfort" limit - they aren't comfortable skiing in their usual way with a softer boot. If they're balanced and adaptable, they often can and do get used to "less" boot in the interest of less weight, but that sounds like it's a ways off for you. A super stiff boot or one that engages very early in the flex pattern can prevent you from doing a decent jump turn in heavy snow or on the steep, and can also prevent you from absorbing shocks with your legs. So stiffer is not necessarily better. There is also the matter of the "quality" of flex - do you prefer the progressive flex of an overlap boot or the "right now" response of a tongue boot (I can't make that call for you, but your Atomics are an overlap design).

My initial desire was the Maestrale RS. Saving $300 vs vulcans and getting an intuition liner. Seems like this year Dynafit teamed up with boa in terms of liners.

BOA doesn't make liners, just the lace mechanisms. Dynafit is making the liners themselves with Ultralon foam (same foam Intuition uses, though they don't call it that anymore).

I've been told or read somewhere the Khion is supposed to be stiffer than the Vulcan.

I am about your weight and they both feel extremely stiff to me; I would probably modify either to soften them up. I cut down the tongue in my Mercuries trying to do this.

It's good to know someone with a ~103 mm last got into a mtn lab, although I do feel inclined to go with scarpa or dynafit as a personal preference based on it seems they've been doing "this" for a while.

Salmon's been making boots for a while, and I have confidence in the simplicity of the MTN Lab. Anything can break, but I doubt there will be any more warranty issues with the Salmon boots than, say, the first generation Maestrale/Maestrale RS walk modes.

[SiSt]

Nice thread, good info to be found.

I'll be checking out the khion/mtn lab/freedom(rs) come autumn.

So far word on the mtn lab is that they're good, but not quite as good as they claim to be (surprise)... definitely going to check them out.

Vulcan/merc/tlt 6 are out for me, skied a tlt 6 for a few days and had to size up to a 28 to make them fit decently/comfortably. I was pleasantly surprised on how they skied, even if the flex is weird with the deforming lowers due to the ultra-lock. I'm the appropriate length, they're way too tight on the midfoot and heel.

Guessing the battle will be between khion and freedom unless the mtn lab fits much better than the two.

Maestrale is out for me since the freedom had such a good touring mode and a much nicer/simpler locking mech.

[Lindahl]

If you're looking at the Freedom RS, the Tecnica Cochise should be on your list as well. Very comparable boots. The Cochise skis a bit better, and the Freedom tours a little bit better. If the Khion tours like the Vulcan, then it'll tour quite a bit better than either. How it skis is yet to be determined.

[Lindahl]

Found this little tidbit about the Khion on an evo.com blog: "a slightly roomier instep and midfoot [than the Vulcan/Mercury]"

[SiSt]

Found this little tidbit about the Khion on an evo.com blog: "a slightly roomier instep and midfoot [than the Vulcan/Mercury]"

That's bringing my hopes up a little that it may be the ticket.

Both the freedom and cochise are a bit on the heavy/in-bounds side for what I'm looking for to be honest. I'm not looking to replace my alpine boots, just complement them with something lighter and more tourable with a minimal tradeoff in how it skis. I'll have an answer in a couple of months.

[babybear]

Any chance you (or anyone else) want to part with your stock Maestrale straps? I liked those -- they're stretchy, kind of like a Booster, but lighter weight.

Soooo I found one, but unfortunately just one...

If I come across the other they're all yours

[Lindahl]

That's bringing my hopes up a little that it may be the ticket.

Both the freedom and cochise are a bit on the heavy/in-bounds side for what I'm looking for to be honest. I'm not looking to replace my alpine boots, just complement them with something lighter and more tourable with a minimal tradeoff in how it skis. I'll have an answer in a couple of months.

Yeah, I'd look at the mtn lab and the khion then. Too bad the mtn lab isn't similar in last to it's other boot series' (non-Ghost). The Ghost doesn't fit a lot of people, the other series' fits a ton of people. I suppose the mtn lab with the custom fit shell plastic would have worked too (same as Atomic MemoryFit, which in my experience is absofuckinglutely amazing in how well it works). Seems like a decent amount of lost potential.

[El Chupacabra]

Soooo I found one, but unfortunately just one...

If I come across the other they're all yours

Thanks for checking -- if that other one does turn up, I'm definitely interested.

[gregL]

Too bad the mtn lab isn't similar in last to it's other boot series' (non-Ghost). The Ghost doesn't fit a lot of people, the other series' fits a ton of people. I suppose the mtn lab with the custom fit shell plastic would have worked too (same as Atomic MemoryFit, which in my experience is absofuckinglutely amazing in how well it works). Seems like a decent amount of lost potential.

On my foot the MTN Lab fits much like an X-Max, which is to say snug around the heel but reasonable over the instep, and not really a true 98 forefoot (I could never wear OP's Atomic Tracker for 3 hours, for instance). Salomon says they couldn't get the MTN Lab's Grilamid shell to work as a Custom Shell, which is weird because the Grilamid Backland Carbon Memory Fit works great (maybe they were speaking German the entire time they were developing it across the room?). I'll report back on how well the MTN Lab shell punches soon.

[Lindahl]

Wierd. I was told the last was based on the Ghost series? Not true? The 130, specifically.

[gregL]

The specs may be the same, but the Ghost boots don't agree with my foot at all. The X-Max and X-Pro are money.

[LeeLau]

I'm appreciating everyone's insight, replies, thoughts, discussion etc, thank you.

As for flex in comparison with all of these how important is it? I'm assuming the higher flex the faster response time essentially for your ski? Any other thoughts in terms of flex?

I've been told or read somewhere the Khion is supposed to be stiffer than the Vulcan.

Khion and Vulcan are both about the same in terms of stiffness . Khion is less brick-wall'ish than Vulcan but it'd be tough to get as brick-wall'ish as Vulcan.

EDIT - forgot to mention there's an AT Boot comparative flex thread in Tech Talk. You'll have to search for it

If you're looking at the Freedom RS, the Tecnica Cochise should be on your list as well. Very comparable boots. The Cochise skis a bit better, and the Freedom tours a little bit better. If the Khion tours like the Vulcan, then it'll tour quite a bit better than either. How it skis is yet to be determined.

Totally agree that Cochise should be compared straight up to Freedom RS. I would point out that the Cochise/Freedom RS class of boots have replaceable soles which adds a lot to longevity. Vulcan/Khion/Maestrale RS don't have replaceable soles.

Found this little tidbit about the Khion on an evo.com blog: "a slightly roomier instep and midfoot [than the Vulcan/Mercury]"

I would say that it's pretty much a wash there for all those boots. The Vulcan/Khion both fit about the same. The difference is in the liners which are lasted differently in the shop with the Khion liners being lasted quite voluminous so the boot is tight in the shop without the liner being cooked. Drop an Intuition in there and they both fit the same. I don't have a micrometer on hand to measure the Khions, Vulcans and Maestrale RS I have on hand to check but that's just my impression

[Island Bay]

Just tried on a pair of Cochise 120s; wow, do they flex nicely!(this from a dyed in the wool Maestrale fan). And the walk mode is very nice, too. Could be a very good NZ club field boot.

[Lindahl]

The specs may be the same, but the Ghost boots don't agree with my foot at all. The X-Max and X-Pro are money.

Agreed. Good to hear. They don't really fit well in my quiver of boots, but would be fun to have just the same. Would prefer to be in my Cochises on anything short of longer days, and my Backlands on the longer ones. The replaceable soles are really nice, and they make a resort boot unnecessary for me. I also ski a lot of sidecountry, so a touring capable resort boot is ideal for me. However, for those with a dedicated resort boot, the mtn lab makes a lot of sense as a one-boot-quiver for the backcountry.

[Graham]

El Chup, I'm pretty sure I still have my RS straps in my closet. They're yours if you want, they're brand new.

[Vt-Freeheel]

I've been skiing Scarpa boots for the last 20 years and will likely end with them somewhere in the next 20.

Printable Brannock for men HERE.

Women use this ONE.

[Kufo]

Was trying to add a link to the Khions, they're on the MEC website right now but TGR is giving me this error.

Post denied. New posts are limited by number of URLs it may contain and checked if it doesn't contain forbidden words.

Not sure why, anyhow MEC has pictures etc of the Khions

On a side note I tried on some 27.5 Vulcans and 28.5 Mercury's today. My street shoe size is 10. The 27.5 Vulcan's were good on my left foot, but tight on my right a bit (could probably punch out etc), the 28.5 Mercury's certainly felt a bit big on both feet. Essentially in the 27.5 shell fit I have 2 fingers approx. I don't really like the stock liners, and it seems I need a footbed on my R. I'm not sure which way to go with this. If it's better for me to get 28.5's mercury and perhaps get a thicker liner (intuition) for added comfort and space for footbeds. Or to get the 27.5 Vulcan's and either put a thin intuition in it and do some work to the R to make it work. From what I've read these boots can basically be made to work for anyone essentially, as long as you have a decent shell fit and not completely messed feet. I'm looking for input here, as I'm ideally wanting a one boot quiver and my concern with going to 28.5 is it will be a bit big (although I could get the 28.0 intuition liner and it might feel perfect. Should I expect these boots to pack out some? I realise they probably wont fit very comfortably now especially not being heat molded etc.

[adrenalated]

Forget the liner. Your shell fit on the 27.5 is at the largest that is acceptable. 28.5 is too big. Get the 27.5 if the overall shape is good, then mold the liners, then punch if needed.

[Dufour]

Interesting thread

After being following TGR for many time, today I've decided to join into the community to be able to post a little bit.
I like freeriding and touring (but for me the tour and hike is not the objective on itself, but more a nice time while I find a new fresh powder slope). So my focus is more downhill than touring.

This year I have to update boots. My actual options are Freedom SL (not RS), perhaps 2016 Vulcan (I still have to try at shop in October if they are more comfortable and roomy) or perhaps perhaps Khion (depending on how they work downhill)

I've been following the Khion since their appearance at the 2015 ISPO.
I like Vulcan concept but they doesn't fit to me. I've used a couple of days with the same result, they hurt (2014 model, no reference on the revamped 2016 model). So I’m more close to overlap boots. I’ve tried one day the Freedom SL, which work pretty fine downhill and are comfortable.

That's bringing my hopes up a little that it may be the ticket.

Both the freedom and cochise are a bit on the heavy/in-bounds side for what I'm looking for to be honest. I'm not looking to replace my alpine boots, just complement them with something lighter and more tourable with a minimal tradeoff in how it skis. I'll have an answer in a couple of months.

Completely agree. My main but with Freedom is weight for the touring part (and probably also the reduced cuff rotation but not a limitation for me).

Khion looks really nice. My doubt with Khion is, how do we have to position them? Where do Dynafit positions these boots and benchmark with other competitors? Looking at the Dynafit webpage You will see that Dynafit says they are more freetouring rather than skitouring. Does it means “more downhill”? In parallel 2016 Vulcans are 50% freetouring 50% skitouring
It seem these are stiff and also forgiving
I've spoken with a couple of shoppers which were at Dynafit "bootcamps" but they cannot yet clarify all the doubts

What do you think?
Does anybody know when real “on-snow” test are going to be made with these boots?

Khion and Vulcan are both about the same in terms of stiffness . Khion is less brick-wall'ish than Vulcan but it'd be tough to get as brick-wall'ish as Vulcan.

Well, English is not my mother tongue so I’m losing a little bit, sorry. LeeLau, what do you exactly mean with this?

Totally agree that Cochise should be compared straight up to Freedom RS. I would point out that the Cochise/Freedom RS class of boots have replaceable soles which adds a lot to longevity. Vulcan/Khion/Maestrale RS don't have replaceable soles.


I would say that it's pretty much a wash there for all those boots. The Vulcan/Khion both fit about the same. The difference is in the liners which are lasted differently in the shop with the Khion liners being lasted quite voluminous so the boot is tight in the shop without the liner being cooked. Drop an Intuition in there and they both fit the same. I don't have a micrometer on hand to measure the Khions, Vulcans and Maestrale RS I have on hand to check but that's just my impression

LeeLou, It seems you have access to the products. How do you see the cuff height of the Khion, similar to Vulcan? How do you compare it to Freedom SL?

Thanks!
Nice Community

[LeeLau]

Dufour I'm out of town right now but later next week I'll post some pics. Also will reply better. Its not your English its my description

[gregL]

The 27.5 Vulcan's were good on my left foot, but tight on my right a bit (could probably punch out etc), the 28.5 Mercury's certainly felt a bit big on both feet. Essentially in the 27.5 shell fit I have 2 fingers approx.

2 fingers (assuming you or the bootfitter has average width fingers, ~15mm) is as big as you should go. As far as punching goes, it depends on where it is tight - not every spot on a boot is "punchable" but there are other techniques. If it's width or length, no problem with the Vulcan. If it's instep, cutting out the extra material like XXX-er mentions and sometimes heat molding can do the trick.