Vivint Solar?

[Jonathan S.]

Anyone here take the plunge yet with this company?

Very interesting sales pitch this evening from Vivint Solar -- I didn't realize that home solar panels could be installed at absolutely zero cost via a Power Purchase Agreement.

The competitor Solar City also offers such an arrangement (so I've also signed up for their estimate now), but Vivint is exclusively this way, although thereby limited to states (like Massachusetts) that have "net metering" (i.e., you can essentially bank the excessive electricity that you generate above your usage).

Seems like the risk-averse choice (i.e., compared to buying or leasing panels), since the only way to lose out relative to the baseline/default scenario is if Vivint maxes out its 2.9% percent annual increase each year while the utility somehow increases at a much lower rate such that the Vivint rate eventually catches up.

A few links I found on Vivint:

http://www.slate.com/articles/busine...r_to_door.html
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9A70T420131108
http://ask.metafilter.com/255751/Viv...hats-the-catch

All of this is of course also entirely moot until the assessor comes out here next Thursday morning for a more detailed examination of our many rooflines and their aspects, but the sales rep in general was very enthusiastic about our subdivision.
(Of the five other newly built houses in our neighborhood, two have already installed solar panels, which I never thought would make financial sense in the cloudy NE, but with Vivint willing to take on all the financial risk...)

[ts01]

No experience Jonathon - but interested in what you learn going forward.

FYI Tesla is publicizing an intriguing product that might tip the scales for me to Solar City if and when we make this move: a battery system they're calling the "Tesla Powerwall" -- http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall -- which charges up from the solar panel (or from the power company at off-peak rates) and can serve as a home power supply backup. Solar City gets it first of course -- http://www.solarcity.com/newsroom/pr...ices-across-us . At this point it's vaporware, but Tesla / SC are saying its just around the corner.

Does Vivint have anything like that? (Or who knows, maybe there are 3d party sources that don't have the PR power of Tesla.)

[Jonathan S.]

^ The sales rep mentioned that as an admittedly vague future possibility when I asked him whether the solar system can act as a back-up power source.
(Otherwise, the system might be able to power the house to a limited extent, although of course the power usually goes out during storms when the sun won't be out to generate power, and the system might just shut down entirely when it senses the inability to send anything back into the grid.)

I just got off the phone with Solar City, but I didn't discuss that possibility.
And of course the solar power generated from our house will essentially be "stored" by screwing up the ISO's load balancing attempts, so home solar is to some extent a beggar-thy-neighbor move.
That's why I'm tempted to get in on this now before future additions are limited.
(We're even charged an add'l 0.106 cents/kWh for the net burden of everyone else on solar!)

[tenB]

Look at the total cost of the system over the duration of the contract vs the cost of going with an independent contractor. The Federal Tax Credit expires in 2016 and many states have production incentives that typically do not include third party lease programs. Almost all banks and credit unions offer low interest loans to install solar arrays as well.

I own a company that designs and installs PV systems in Washington State and our prices are roughly half of the embedded cost of a lease program through Solar City. Almost anybody that owns a home qualifies for a low interest renewable energy loan through a credit union or bank. Do your homework.

[ts01]

Do your homework.

Don't underestimate Jonathan's capacity to do homework.

But for the rest of us, if you're in the business, what are good sources or websites to consult?

[Jonathan S.]

Do your homework.

Okay, fine, how's this for homework:

1. Despite my initial attraction to a PPA, I noticed that our daughter's school was installing solar panels with a locally owned worker cooperative -- if only the panels were also organically grown by vegan gluten-free farmers then it would hit all the highpoints for the Pioneer Valley here north of the Tofu Curtain.

2. After the coop's site visit, I was able to replicate their 25-yr present value analysis for a system we would own. When I substituted some of my own inputs (including a higher home insurance premium) and financial parameters, no net changes for the baseline scenario. Overall, pretty much a wash over the 20 yrs of a PPA (Solar City, not Vivint ... which now says our roof is too steep?!?), but of course at the end of 20 yrs the owned system is owned outright. For a worst-case scenario, still a wash even over a 25-yr timeframe.

3. The bigger problem though is that I am able to significantly reduce my Line 43 Taxable Income via a combination of my Solo 401k, our self-employed health insurance deduction, itemized deductions, and the usual exemptions, so my Line 47 Tax is relatively small. Hence the vast majority of my tax liability comes from the Line 57 Self-employment Tax. So the Line 53 solar credit will need tax years 2016 and 2017 plus maybe also 2018 to be fully used.

As of now the Form 5695 carryforward expires after 2016.
Congress can of course change that, and indeed probably will.
But so far I can't find any reasonably informed discussion of its prospects -- or even just wild speculation.
Seems impossible that Congress would allow it to expire thereby leaving so many people high & dry ... although that's my stumbling block right now for choosing to own a system.

[bl2000]

Congress has let solar energy credits expire before.

[Jonathan S.]

Congress has let solar energy credits expire before.

You mean just the initial credits or also their carryforwards?

[Fritz]

Have you looked to see if there are any community solar arrays on the grid you are on? Seems like a better solution. Buy the panel(s), no bs on your roof, easy to sell if you move and have to change utility companies but can keep the panel if you move within the same utility area.

-edit - where do you live?

[skifishbum]

don't do much homework
like to keep it simple stupids
put a 35k system on the roof in last dec
the notes a hundo which is what are average lectric bill on the 3700 sq ft crib was
w/ the exception of a $40 bill 1 month last winter our electric bill is the $8 rocky mountain power charges as a metering grid hookup fee.
rocky mnt power averages to vote themselves a 7 to 14% rate increase yearly and is fighting hard to increase the metering fee
because their business model is based on coal fired electrical generation
i have a tax deductable note on a home equ line w/ no early pay out fee instead of a bill for services generated by a method i'm not down with
got2k from ut 9k federal
stoked on it i'd rather
#burnherbsnotcoal

[Jonathan S.]

Have you looked to see if there are any community solar arrays on the grid you are on? Seems like a better solution. Buy the panel(s), no bs on your roof, easy to sell if you move and have to change utility companies but can keep the panel if you move within the same utility area.

-edit - where do you live?

Very interesting, thanks -- I had no idea that existed!

And indeed some are located in my state, but not in my community:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commun...#Massachusetts
Oddly enough, my home partrol area:
http://www.gdfsuezna.com/cross-country-skiing/
... has a massive solar array:
http://www.gdfsuezna.com/letting-the-sunshine-in/
... although even odder is that all the recreational opportunities there are mandated by the FERC in return for the massive pumped-storage hydro facility carved out of the summit:
http://www.gdfsuezna.com/northfield-mountain/

Another place I patrol at (and put on a rando/skimo race) has a solar array (and wind turbine, courtesy in part b/c of the investment banking energy industry expertise of one of the sons of the owning family's patriarch):
http://www.berkshireeast.com/employm...ewable-energy/

So lots of solar all over here!
(But no community arrays apparently...)

[Jonathan S.]

Very interesting, thanks -- I had no idea that existed!

And indeed some are located in my state, but not in my community:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commun...#Massachusetts

Whoops, I was wrong!

Or rather, community solar is not widely available right now in Massachusetts, since the enabling legislation was only recently passed.
Or so the sales lady at the booth told me yesterday at the town fair as my daughter on my shoulders was impatiently prodding me to get moving over the bouncy house...
Anyway, supposedly they get all the sign-ups beforehand before the system is up & running.
Saves 15% on your electricity bill:
http://nexamp.com/what-we-do/community-solar
No "opportunity cost" with rooftop solar, since it's 15% off whatever your grid consumption is (which us would be about 50% of our total kWh consumption).
All in return for zero dollar investment and zero absolutely anything else either!?!

[XXX-er]

After paddling Gwaii Haanas last week I was stuck in Queen Charlotte city, ended up at a hostel that was totally off the grid, Buddy was a millright/ mechanic/ ham operator/ electro genius, his power came from a solar array on a servo controled pedestal made from junk (bedframe and a chunk of pipe) that tracked the sun which is apparently good for an extra 40%, at night or in the event of a hurricane the array parks at parallel to the ground.

during the day the power gets used directly or fed into the battery bank to be used for night ops, the batteries are all scavenged from the local Napa store where buddy raids the pallet of core returns, sez as long as a cell isn't dead its just sulphated battery plates which can be fixed with a 30$ gizmo from china

buddy also rides an electric scooter which he charges from a solar array so he rides for free

the takeaway I got is proper design is everything and this is not rocket science