27.5+.....has the industry gone full moron?

**TahoeJ** · 05-02-2016, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by puregravity

27.5+ is the rockered fat ski of the bike world.
It is about time.

No, no it's not. I'm hardly Damian but you're going too far with statements like that.

**kidwoo** · 05-02-2016, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by puregravity

It would help if the local shops carried one more model than the stupid steel hardtail version.
This year, everyone is talking about how they want low psi and fat tread, even on pinner rims.
27.5+ is the rockered fat ski of the bike world.
It is about time.

Hardly.

Think about who brought rockered fat skis into existence.

Now think about who brought plus sized tires into existence.

**YoEddy** · 05-03-2016, 06:17 AM

Hmm, I'm not really sure who actually 'brought' the plus sized tires into existence, but I'm reading a lot of dismissal from people that haven't ever even tried them. Reminds me of when fat skis first came out, and a lot of hardcore skiers dismissed them. Or when skis in general started to evolve into shorter lengths, and hardcore skiers dismissed them while clutching their 210cm's.

I see a very similar evolution here as with the ski industry. Remember the days of 210cm GS skis when maybe, maybe 5% of the population could actually carve a real turn, and then along came short skis and suddenly 'everybody' was carving turns? So what happens if plus sized tires help folks with lesser or tentative skills 'instantly' ride better, which I think they will. Doesn't the bike industry as a whole benefit? Who does it hurt? Nobody except the hardcore brobrahs that bitch about wankers riding shit they shouldn't be able to ... just like skiing.

Now don't get me wrong - I don't think plus tires are going to become any sort of defacto standard, but it's certainly an interesting path with worthwhile benefits.

**Damian Sanders** · 05-03-2016, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by YoEddy

Hmm, I'm not really sure who actually 'brought' the plus sized tires into existence, but I'm reading a lot of dismissal from people that haven't ever even tried them. Reminds me of when fat skis first came out, and a lot of hardcore skiers dismissed them. Or when skis in general started to evolve into shorter lengths, and hardcore skiers dismissed them while clutching their 210cm's.

I see a very similar evolution here as with the ski industry. Remember the days of 210cm GS skis when maybe, maybe 5% of the population could actually carve a real turn, and then along came short skis and suddenly 'everybody' was carving turns? So what happens if plus sized tires help folks with lesser or tentative skills 'instantly' ride better, which I think they will. Doesn't the bike industry as a whole benefit? Who does it hurt? Nobody except the hardcore brobrahs that bitch about wankers riding shit they shouldn't be able to ... just like skiing.

Now don't get me wrong - I don't think plus tires are going to become any sort of defacto standard, but it's certainly an interesting path with worthwhile benefits.

Less than 5% of "people who ski" can actually carve a turn, with fat skis, shaped skis, rocker skis or otherwise. 99%+ of these plus+ bikes will never be ridden on anything like the terrain in the video I posted above. They may (big maybe) help people clear a few sections in their local trails that they couldn't otherwise, but it's just going to make most people slower overall.

**YoEddy** · 05-03-2016, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

... but it's just going to make most people slower overall.

And the problem with that is? I mean, if they're knowingly willing to give up speed for whatever they see as the benefit then what's the problem there? Does everyone have to race, or thrown it down the mountain in the fastest manner possible? Can't people just enjoy their friggin bike ride without being measured? Worst case is that they get better because they enjoy it more and ride more and then spend more money on a faster bike to keep up with you and earn your respect. Isn't that a Win-Win for the industry?

That said, I'm not trying to sell you on anything here, and I get the message that it's not for you, but have you ridden a plus bike?

BTW I didn't come to the decision to go with the 29+ lightly. I had serious reservations of giving up the potential overall speed of a hardtail XC bike, but my competitive racing days are behind me, and now I just want to have fun on the bike, and I'll say it again - the 29+ was a hoot to ride. I'll be sure to hold my line with a smile on my face when you pass me.

**Damian Sanders** · 05-03-2016, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by YoEddy

And the problem with that is? I mean, if they're knowingly willing to give up speed for whatever they see as the benefit then what's the problem there? Does everyone have to race, or thrown it down the mountain in the fastest manner possible? Can't people just enjoy their friggin bike ride without being measured? Worst case is that they get better because they enjoy it more and ride more and then spend more money on a faster bike to keep up with you and earn your respect. Isn't that a Win-Win for the industry?

That said, I'm not trying to sell you on anything here, and I get the message that it's not for you, but have you ridden a plus bike?

BTW I didn't come to the decision to go with the 29+ lightly. I had serious reservations of giving up the potential overall speed of a hardtail XC bike, but my competitive racing days are behind me, and now I just want to have fun on the bike, and I'll say it again - the 29+ was a hoot to ride. I'll be sure to hold my line with a smile on my face when you pass me.

Only bad thing about a slower bike overall is that it takes more effort for less results. Everyone has different threshold for what's acceptable. If 99.9% of the time you don't need the extra traction, you might want to get a lighter bike that rolls faster so you can cover more ground more easily. If that didn't matter, we'd all be riding around on 65lb Brooklyn TMX's. People who ride around fat bikes "for fun" on normal terrain will soon get tired of them - it's complete overkill.

Last year, I tried to go extra light with my bike setup, with a 32mm fork and micro-knobby rear tire. Bike worked very well non-technical stuff, but was lacking when the going got rough. I felt it was worth the $$$ and 1/2lb of weight to run a beefier fork and more aggressive tire setup. But it's still fast.

I want to know how much of the supposed benefits of this plus stuff is just pure hype. In the rear, I ran the 26x2.35" IKON last year:

26X2.35 60-559 120tpi FOLDABLE 680g 3C MAXX SPEED 3C/EXO/TR Black

Fast tire, decent grip, but falls short on a variety of technical terrain. Here's the IKON+, rear tire in the video above:

27.5X2.80 71-584 120tpi FOLDABLE 770g 3C MAXX SPEED 3C/EXO/TR Black

Sooooooo.....it's 11mm wider, and 1" larger in diameter? Same compound, same casing, same tread pattern. Does anyone actually believe this tire is going to perform miracles on technical terrain? It's not a 42a 2.7 Minion DHF folks.

**jamesp** · 05-03-2016, 08:53 AM

plus tires are starting to do the demo rounds round me & I've been surprised by the people that are saying how good they are i.e. people who I wouldn't expect to like them based on how they ride, their previous bikes etc. I'm still a little skeptical but I will try one & see for myself. I get that the tire strength thing will be an issue for some, totally understand that they won't be for everyone, local trails will be a big factor in this. And yes some people are so fking rad in teh techness that nothing less than solid rubber will be strong enough. Obviously take this with a grain of salt but the demo guys reckon the plus demo fleets have less flats overall than 'normal' size tries.

Most FS bikes don't last much more than ~5 years if ridden lots (more than that = serious $$ on maintenance). Who cares if standards change, so long as parts are available for 5-6 years then that's enough for the vast majority.

**YoEddy** · 05-03-2016, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

Only bad thing about a slower bike overall is that it takes more effort for the same results.

FIFY - based on my experience of actually riding one. You can read all you want about the supposed benefits, but you're not going to know if it's good or bad for you until you actually ride one as well.

I don't think anyone is claiming miracles from + bikes, or 27.5 or 29 wheels in general for that matter. At the end of the day it's not the car, but the driver. What works for one likely won't work for all. Certainly you're not suggesting that 26" wheels are superior for everyone, everywhere, for all types of riding in all situations?

You can answer yes to that last sentence by eliminating the word 'everyone', but I just don't understand the negativity and outright dismissal of something you haven't tried because it doesn't make sense to you, and therefore has to be equally useless for everyone else.

**kidwoo** · 05-03-2016, 10:31 AM

Fat tires are not fat skis. I'm never floating on two feet of dirt and rocks. As a snowboarder on the outside looking in, when spatula prototypes started showing up around here, all I could think was "oh yeah, like a water ski, makes total sense" And it was the gaffneys and mcconkey who dunnit........three absolute rippers.

Fat tires on the other hand, are now a natural trickle down from fat bikes....something utilitarian from snow and sand popularity, and strange alcoholic places like Alaska and the workshop at Surly bikes.

It's absolutely something being pushed by an industry of Scott Sports, Specialized etc to get you to buy something. Yes they ride differently......duh. But just like fat bikes, there is something very very important that gets compromised that no one seems to talk about because they honestly never benfitted from it to begin with. Tires need to dig in to work. The widest tire in the world will still break loose and when it does, it still stays on top of the dirt way more than a harder, narrower tire with a good tread design. Just like with bigger wheels, there's a precision compromise, especially at high speeds.

Yes I've ridden one (one of the 6fattie stumpjumper things). Only people who haven't think they roll slow, especially over small chatter. They pretty much erase small chatter, and those big balloons grab all over rocks climbing them at slower speeds. Ironically, the kind of riding Damian proclaims as his end all be all of existence, is exactly where those kinds of bikes rule. It's hilarious watching him rail against them when it's obvious he has no idea.

But just like everyone has said, it's not 'hating' there's a definite compromise when it comes to hauling ass on those things. It's like riding a frame with a loose swingarm or on a de-tensioned wheel. To give those thin ass tires some support with enough air pressure, you then end up with two giant undamped balloons bouncing all over the place.

It's kind of like taking a 1985 Cadillac to the go cart track. Yeah it's really smooth, and makes for a comfy, easy ride. But you sure as shit won't be moving around corners very well. I've spent a lot of time finding tires, wheels and frames that are extremely rigid, so they hold a line when my eyeballs are bouncing all over the place and I'm just aiming for the light. For me, big soft tires are step backwards.

**grinch** · 05-03-2016, 11:24 AM

Definitely not going to rush out and buy some mainly because I don't think tires are there yet or more in particular, tire casings aren't there. Exo might be fine for a month or so but they're far from supportive or durable. Last 4 rides on 2.5 minion exo' yielded four flats. Holes thru the casings at the treads and pinch flatting sidewalls. Put some butcher grids on and I think they'll be similar. Better news is crazy glue seems to hold patches to the inside of the tire quite well . I don't think I'd want to pedal around a dual ply casing 3 inch tire and I think that's what is needed until tire casing improve. At least for any kind of longevity.
All that being said, I bet they're fun af and probably a great option to have in the wheel quiver(if casings improve). Sometimes it be great to have a pair on on some wet, steep muddy days and play in the tech I'd imagine
Tire companies should improve normal tires more before they invent new segments that make current technology even worse. Bikes are fun, fat tires are fun(I think but haven't tried), flats not so much

**kidwoo** · 05-03-2016, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by grinch

Tire companies should improve normal tires more before they invent new segments that make current technology even worse.

Kinda my take too.

What rims are you using that you're getting flats on 2.5 exos? Were these bought within the last year? They seem to have toned down the exo casings when the double down stuff started. Again.....a step backwards.

**stuckathuntermtn** · 05-03-2016, 11:44 AM

Well it's nice that they don't roll slower, but the last thing I need is something that makes cornering or holding a line when you can't see harder.

**toast2266** · 05-03-2016, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by kidwoo

Fat tires are not fat skis. I'm never floating on two feet of dirt and rocks. As a snowboarder on the outside looking in, when spatula prototypes started showing up around here, all I could think was "oh yeah, like a water ski, makes total sense" And it was the gaffneys and mcconkey who dunnit........three absolute rippers.

Fat tires on the other hand, are now a natural trickle down from fat bikes....something utilitarian from snow and sand popularity, and strange alcoholic places like Alaska and the workshop at Surly bikes.

It's absolutely something being pushed by an industry of Scott Sports, Specialized etc to get you to buy something. Yes they ride differently......duh. But just like fat bikes, there is something very very important that gets compromised that no one seems to talk about because they honestly never benfitted from it to begin with. Tires need to dig in to work. The widest tire in the world will still break loose and when it does, it still stays on top of the dirt way more than a harder, narrower tire with a good tread design. Just like with bigger wheels, there's a precision compromise, especially at high speeds.

Yes I've ridden one (one of the 6fattie stumpjumper things). Only people who haven't think they roll slow, especially over small chatter. They pretty much erase small chatter, and those big balloons grab all over rocks climbing them at slower speeds. Ironically, the kind of riding Damian proclaims as his end all be all of existence, is exactly where those kinds of bikes rule. It's hilarious watching him rail against them when it's obvious he has no idea.

But just like everyone has said, it's not 'hating' there's a definite compromise when it comes to hauling ass on those things. It's like riding a frame with a loose swingarm or on a de-tensioned wheel. To give those thin ass tires some support with enough air pressure, you then end up with two giant undamped balloons bouncing all over the place.

It's kind of like taking a 1985 Cadillac to the go cart track. Yeah it's really smooth, and makes for a comfy, easy ride. But you sure as shit won't be moving around corners very well. I've spent a lot of time finding tires, wheels and frames that are extremely rigid, so they hold a line when my eyeballs are bouncing all over the place and I'm just aiming for the light. For me, big soft tires are step backwards.

This pretty well sums up my experience on them. Rode a Scott Genius something or other Plus.

It rolled along ok. Not fast, but not a total dog either. The extra rotating weight was pretty noticeable in corners and tighter spots.

They had gobs of traction in loose, ball bearing kinda stuff and sand over hardpack. They were pretty fun in in that environment. They also climb through loose stuff really well; again, lots of traction. Where I really disliked them was in any higher speed rocky technical areas. They just felt really imprecise, and it was hard to pick a line because the front tire would just bounce all over the place. Admittedly though, it was a quick ride and I didn't get to experiment with tire pressure at all (not sure what the demo bike was set at, but they were pretty firm).

I can see them being fun for a lot of people in a lot of places. I don't see myself running out to buy one, but if I was forced to ride one for a week, I'm fairly certain I'd still have a good time on it (which I wouldn't say for a fat bike, so this isn't just a generalized "all 2 wheeled vehicles are fun" kind of statement). But yeah, tire durability will be a limiting factor.

**jono** · 05-03-2016, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

I want to know home much of the supposed benefits of this plus stuff is just pure hype.

I call BS. You have no interest in knowing or you'd have ridden one by now.

Puregravity, you may be right about your wife's change in experience being huge with these, but has she ridden one yet? Also a good idea. The trouble with this kind of compromise to make things easier for beginners (which is a good idea: even if it makes our hard-earned skills seem a little obsolete it probably means less dumbed down trails and less waiting for her--them!) is that not every beginner will benefit from the same thing, either. Every beginner has different hangups.

**grinch** · 05-03-2016, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by kidwoo

Kinda my take too.

What rims are you using that you're getting flats on 2.5 exos? Were these bought within the last year? They seem to have toned down the exo casings when the double down stuff started. Again.....a step backwards.

Tires are from last year. Maybe sealant degrades them? I'm using them on 823's. High 20's air pressure, maybe 30 on the rear. Buddy I ride with a lot put a Michelin wild rock 'r on about the same time. Shows a fraction of the wear as my 3c or even the 60d and they work great even in the wet. Seal up real well. Zero issues. They even held all their air all winter in cold storage. He just recently pulled it off to through on the front and it looks like none of the sea leant has shrank or dried. Working extremely well in burly conditions. Thinking I should try those. Can't remember price but they measure up same width As minion 2.5 and I think Michelin calls them 2.35 or 2.4

**kidwoo** · 05-03-2016, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by grinch

Tires are from last year. Maybe sealant degrades them? I'm using them on 823's. High 20's air pressure, maybe 30 on the rear. Buddy I ride with a lot put a Michelin wild rock 'r on about the same time. Shows a fraction of the wear as my 3c or even the 60d and they work great even in the wet. Seal up real well. Zero issues. They even held all their air all winter in cold storage. He just recently pulled it off to through on the front and it looks like none of the sea leant has shrank or dried. Working extremely well in burly conditions. Thinking I should try those. Can't remember price but they measure up same width As minion 2.5 and I think Michelin calls them 2.35 or 2.4

It's the rims. It took me a long time to admit it but mavic tubeless rims are sidewall poison. As soon as I quit using them, I quit killing tires. FWIW I put a hole in one of those wildrockr 2s the first day I had them with pressure in the low 30s. That's why I asked. The Michelins are definitely thicker (and heavier).

The goop I make (half stans/half molding latex) seems to dry up a lot less. Something in the solvents keeps it gooey longer inside the tire. Might be worth checking out.

**Damian Sanders** · 05-03-2016, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by YoEddy

Certainly you're not suggesting that 26" wheels are superior for everyone, everywhere, for all types of riding in all situations?

They're not? That's news to me. Obviously 26" wheels are superior everywhere and in all conditions. They are lighter, stiffer, stronger and have less rotational inertia, are easier to maneuver, and allow better frame design. Anybody who says otherwise has either been brainwashed or is lying to you.

**bagtagley** · 05-03-2016, 12:10 PM

I've got a HR II EXO on an 819, got it last year. I've pinch flatted it twice now. One resulted in a nice hole in the middle of the tread.

Interesting side note, I went to re-up the sealant in my tires and discovered several bottles of dried latex and ammonia. I found a small, unopened bottle of Caffelatex in the shed. No idea where it came from, but I put it in with the intention of replacing it with some super sealant once I had the ingredients...and then completely forgot. It filled the holes from both pinch flats. The bigger hole took some time and a little assistance, but it sealed and has held. I may just have been lucky, but I've never had that kind of luck with straight Stan's.

**bagtagley** · 05-03-2016, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by kidwoo

It's the rims.

Interdasting

**grinch** · 05-03-2016, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by kidwoo

It's the rims. It took me a long time to admit it but mavic tubeless rims are sidewall poison. As soon as I quit using them, I quit killing tires. FWIW I put a hole in one of those wildrockr 2s the first day I had them with pressure in the low 30s. That's why I asked. The Michelins are definitely thicker (and heavier).

The goop I make (half stans/half molding latex) seems to dry up a lot less. Something in the solvents keeps it gooey longer inside the tire. Might be worth checking out.

Well shit. I like the way 823's seal up with that solid pop. But now that you say that , most of the holes in the treads are directly over the rim sidewall. Still those exo's feel less than supportive in a too short period of time. I kept checking the pressure because they continually got flexy/sqiurmier that was ez to tell at slow speeds where they shouldn't have noticeable flex.Probably going to get some lighter rims in 27.5 real soon so maybe I'll put some dual plys on the 823's. They're incredibly strong. Been using joes sealant and my buddy the same as a direct comparison. I'll try adding latex though. Probably save some $ and extend my bottle too. Been going they it like beer lately

**kidwoo** · 05-03-2016, 12:24 PM

823s, 819s etc all have a rim braking edge that makes the sidewall insanely rigid. It's part of what makes them track so well. But that also causes slices through sidewalls (and often punches through the middle of the tread section too) like no other. I used to have to run a dh casing tire on the rear of my bike with some crossmax xls that were basically 21mm 819s. But EXO casings, specialized grid casings.....whatever. I'd kill several tires a summer if they weren't full on dh tires.

I ditched the mavics for some enves and haven't had a single flat in almost three years now with those. I broke an enve last year and then first day on a WTB i23 replacement, I dinged it about 6 times and then got a flat. Not perfect but still better than mavic for tire longevity.

**Damian Sanders** · 05-03-2016, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by kidwoo

Yes I've ridden one (one of the 6fattie stumpjumper things). Only people who haven't think they roll slow, especially over small chatter. They pretty much erase small chatter, and those big balloons grab all over rocks climbing them at slower speeds. Ironically, the kind of riding Damian proclaims as his end all be all of existence, is exactly where those kinds of bikes rule. It's hilarious watching him rail against them when it's obvious he has no idea.

So, when you construct a straw man to argue against, are they normal height, or kinda short?

**kidwoo** · 05-03-2016, 12:27 PM

Doesn't matter. As with most inanimate objects either will still have a higher IQ than you.

**Damian Sanders** · 05-03-2016, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by jono

I call BS. You have no interest in knowing or you'd have ridden one by now.

I rode a 26+ bike back in the year 2000. It was pretty awesome, if a bit heavy.

**grinch** · 05-03-2016, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by kidwoo

823s, 819s etc all have a rim braking edge that makes the sidewall insanely rigid. It's part of what makes them track so well. But that also causes slices through sidewalls (and often punches through the middle of the tread section too) like no other. I used to have to run a dh casing tire on the rear of my bike with some crossmax xls that were basically 21mm 819s. But EXO casings, specialized grid casings.....whatever. I'd kill several tires a summer if they weren't full on dh tires.

I ditched the mavics for some enves and haven't had a single flat in almost three years now with those. I broke an enve last year and then first day on a WTB i23 replacement, I dinged it about 6 times and then got a flat. Not perfect but still better than mavic for tire longevity.

I ran a Crossmark in a LUST 60d I ran for almost 4yrs on cross max sl. Enves might be out of my price range atm. I am looking at lb's (30front with 24 rear inner) but likely go Easton arc (30 front 27 rear). Bit of a thread jack now (apart from lust>exo)but tried any of those?