School me on pack suspension systems

[shafty85]

I've been looking at getting a new touring/mountaineering pack in the 35L range and have been a bit overwhelmed by all the possibilities out there. Beyond all the bells and whistles and custom made packs, there is also the vast number of options for the suspension system of the pack. Frame-less, u-frame, v-frame, butterfly frame... where does one begin to get a good understanding of what style of frame system does what? For a touring/mountaineering pack, is it best for a suspension system to distribute weight over the back, such as a U-type system? Do you want the load on your hips, such as a v-frame or butterfly system, and what is the difference/benefits/trade-offs between the two? Or, is frame-less, with its lesser weight (far as I can tell) the way to go, and just wear the weight on your shoulders and hips...

Anyone with some knowledge/background able to provide some insight into the various styles of suspension systems, their pros and cons and perhaps point me in the right direction for a touring/mountaineering pack? I have my pencil and eraser at the ready and will be taking notes at a furious pace.

[lobstahmeatwad]

The idea with any backpack is to transfer the load to your hips.
I actually get paid to design these systems. Im new to the game but it all depends on how much weight you will be carrying and has allot to do with personal preferance for how you want to carry your load. With any system adjustabilty is key for comfort because the more comfortable you are the less fatigue you will have to endure. If the body panel is ridged the load will transfer to your hips regardless of the specifics of the stays and framing. Then you want a comfortable waistbelt. For day trips or hut overnights you can get by with almost anything and thats what you will be looking at in a 35l pack imo.

[Meadow Skipper]

In the 35l range I like at least a bit of frame because that's the size I use to load up with gear and supplies and a frame helps it carry better, IME. The type of frame seems to matter less than how the pack fits and carries overall, and that has a lot to do with the total design, proportions, straps, and belt.

So my advice is to try some on, or go custom (cue for Big Steve's McHale endorsement).

[concretejungle]

Is your torso length "normal" i.e. does it fall between the given size ranges for the packs you are looking at? Torso length not height. How do normal outdoor packs fit you and do you have anything that would cause packs to fit weird? This would decide if you need to go custom or not.

I can't imagine it would matter what type of internal frame pack it is. I assume U, V, butterfly are all types of internal frames and given that a quick google search gave me results on external vs. internal (not what I asked) I can't imagine they are all that different and not just some companies proprietary frame hype. Find one that you like and go with it.

Unless you are a very good packer I wouldn't buy a frameless pack unless they've come out with some sort of "game-changer." They're basically a bag with straps.

Do you want a lightweight pack or a more durable one? I haven't purchased a pack in years so I can't recommend one and the ones I did have either sucked, were decent and I made due or were custom and I wore out. The next pack I have to buy will be custom and durable so I'll be set.

[shafty85]

Thanks for the information - good reads, all, thus far.

I believe my torso is of average length (I'm 5'-11" and my torso is ~47cm or 18.5"/19") and I'd rather a touch more weight in exchange for durability rather than a little lighter and less durable. I am considering three packs:

http://www.mammut.ch/en/productDetai...Trion-Pro.html
Pros: on sale for 30& off at backcountry.com and seems to check all my boxes for needs as a mountaineering pack. I like the back panel access (for me, a pack with top access only is too limited).
Cons: may not be able to try on prior to purchase and they only come in one size

http://arcteryx.com/product.aspx?lan...ki-38-Backpack
Pros: can get on sale and have heard people rave about them and they come in multiple sizes (I'm at the low end of the medium size range and high end of the small size range - which would be a better choice, if I were to go this route?)
Cons: not sure they'd be a great mountaineering (especially in summer) pack

http://www.alpinethreadworks.com/products/selkirk.html
Or
http://www.alpinethreadworks.com/products/purcell.html
Pros: obviously, a custom pack (or made to measure, anyway) and can be customized. More leaning towards the Purcell in terms of mountaineering, but not convinced either way.
Cons: price

In terms of a pack for both ski touring and mountaineering, the Mammut and Alpine Threadworks (Purcell?) packs seem to be more in line with what I am looking for. Anyone have any experience with the Alpine Threadworks Purcell pack?

Thanks again for all the help.

[XXX-er]

I've been using a bora 40 until the shoulder strap started ripping, so I called arcterxy and they said yeah its warrantied send it in which I will be doing, that impressed me so I just picked up an arcteryx KEA 37 regularly 200$ on a smoking deal for only 130$ so its another pack to consider

[mall walker]

IME the waist belt makes the biggest difference. Trying them on helps, but you really have to take the time to properly adjust a pack (sometimes having another person help you can be useful) to get an idea of the overall fit. A comfortable waist belt that sits on top of your hips can really make a nice difference though. Also comfy shoulder straps, although I am probably a little more comfort-oriented than some of the hardman types.

[Flyoverland Captive]

If you fall in between torso sizes, go up to the larger one. It's far easier to cinch up the shoulder straps a bit to keep the weight evenly distributed on your hips that to try to lower the pack to get it to reach your hips.

[auvgeek]

http://www.alpinethreadworks.com/products/selkirk.html
Or
http://www.alpinethreadworks.com/products/purcell.html
Pros: obviously, a custom pack (or made to measure, anyway) and can be customized. More leaning towards the Purcell in terms of mountaineering, but not convinced either way.
Cons: price

In terms of a pack for both ski touring and mountaineering, the Mammut and Alpine Threadworks (Purcell?) packs seem to be more in line with what I am looking for. Anyone have any experience with the Alpine Threadworks Purcell pack?

Thanks again for all the help.

Why not the Alpine Threadworks Selkirk Light? I have one in full dynama, and it was much cheaper than the equivalent Cilo Gear offerings. I've carried overnight gear (including a tool and food crampons) with skis/boots A-framed on my 45L Selkirk Light, and it was excellent. Not sure I'd want to carry a week's worth of stuff or a full rope and rack as well, but 45L is a little tight for all that anyway. Neil might be willing to do a side zip for access on the Selkirk Light if you ask real nice.

[shafty85]

Yeah, Arcteryx warranty is awesome, but I don't think the Kea quite fits the bill for what I want (checked it out over the weekend).

Agreed, the waist belt makes a difference, but I feel it is also the entire package - the suspension system, how the straps sit on your shoulders, etc - that makes the pack 'comfy' or not. Agreed, again, that comfort is important.

Thanks for the heads up - if I go with the Khamski, will go with the regular - makes sense what you are saying.

The selkirk light, for me, goes a little too light. I prefer to have an external pocket for my avi gear and need ice axe attachments. That being said, I'm sure Neil would be able to accommodate that, but I wonder if then I'd be just basically going back to the regular Selkirk... Do you know what type of suspension system Neil uses in his packs? Is there a frame in his packs? His website doesn't appear to mention anything about that, or at least not that I can find.

[GeezerSteve]

Go custom, e.g., McHale or Alpine Threadworks. IME, no mass produced pack will carry as well as a custom-made pack on technical terrain. The key is get most of the load on the hips without losing stability. IME, the only way to get there is to have a custom torso length so that when the hip belt is correctly loaded, the shoulder straps just break over your trapezoid muscles without unduly loading them, and the shoulder strap attaches to the top of the internal stay. That keeps the load close to the back and stable. This requires a pack with an internal stay length customized for the user. By far the more common attempt to get there -- at the cost of stability -- is to have the internal stays project above the trapezoids with a tension member (often called a "load leveler") attached to the top of the stay, while the shoulder straps curve over the traps and attach to the pack between the shoulder blades. Alpine Threadworks offers its packs with a custom torso (stay) length. All dimensions on a McHale are custom, i.e., torso/stay length, belt height, shoulder strap width, pack size, etc., etc.

[adrenalated]

Good info above; to add to it a little... all internal frame pack designs work similarly, to transfer weight off the shoulders and onto the hips. IME, the U-shaped stays don't transfer weight to the hips quite as well as other styles, but they allow for a large backpanel openings, which are awesome on the right packs. I will not buy a pack larger than about 20L without a frame, ever.

From Mammut, the Trion Pro is a great climbing pack, but the external pocket doesn't really fit avy gear unless you carry a kiddie scoop of a shovel. Wrong size, wrong shape, wrong opening type. I have a Mammut Spindrift Guide 45 and REALLY like it for ski touring/ski mountaineering (get the 45 over the 35, they seem small for the stated volume). I also have used an Osprey Varient 37 for years and it was a fantastic climbing pack and a very serviceable ski pack, but it has been redesigned/updated and I have no experience with the new model.

If you go custom, you're guaranteed to get a pack that fits you perfectly. However, you'll pay for it and IMO the design of the pack bodies from McHale compared to modern packs from many manufacturers is severely lacking. I know Big Steve will disagree and I'm sure they are nice packs, but whatever. For some people a custom pack may be the only option to get one that fits right, for others an off the shelf pack may fit very well or at least well enough. That's the case for me - not all packs will fit me, but some will off the shelf or with some mild customization/tweaking. Really, there's no way to know without trying the pack on, loading it up, and wearing it around awhile, ideally with your gear arranged how you would pack it (not with sandbags, etc.)

To Flyoverland's point about being in-between torso sizes - sometimes I have found the smaller size carries more comfortably, sometimes the larger size does, regardless of what the manufacturer says you should use. Depends on the pack. However, if you're actually in-between sizes after trying on, then you probably should be looking for a different pack that fits better.

[auvgeek]

Do you know what type of suspension system Neil uses in his packs? Is there a frame in his packs? His website doesn't appear to mention anything about that, or at least not that I can find.

They are frameless. Like I said, it works fine for me if the load is light. I haven't carried particularly large/heavy loads for very long, but I have other packs (Cilo Gear 60L) for that. The one complaint I have with his packs are the ice tool attachments. And it looks like he's run out of the dyneema--too bad.

[rod9301]

I have a deuter kid carrier, and it has a pretty good torso length adjustment system.

Do you know if other deuter packs have a length adjustment system?

[adrenalated]

I have a deuter kid carrier, and it has a pretty good torso length adjustment system.

Do you know if other deuter packs have a length adjustment system?

Many of them do, yes.

[shafty85]

Thanks for all the information - man, this stuff can be overwhelming in the sheer volume of information. BigSteve, half of what you said flew right over my head - would you still recommend Alpine Threadworks even though they are frameless? Can't justify, or afford, spending the money on a McHale at this point in my life, even if they are the bee's knees.

Adrenalated, are you sure you don't mean this pack, when referencing the Trion Pro?
http://www.mammut.ch/en/productDetai...Trion-Pro.html
Why they have two packs with the same name is beyond me. That being said, I contacted a shop that carries this version pack
http://www.mammut.ch/en/productDetai...Trion-Pro.html
and the guy said he fit a G3 avitech shovel and a BD 320 probe in the pocket. Interesting what you said about the U-frame, though, and that seemed to jive with their description of how the U-frame distributes load. I'm leaning heavily towards the Mammut based on price and apparent versatility (I think it would make a much better mountaineering pack than the Arcteryx).

auvgeek, congrats on the engagement. Frameless... just not sure I can be sold on a frameless pack. I can understand the weight consideration, but I would be willing to sacrifice some weight for better performance. You and BigSteve are likely more able to comment on this, but is a frameless pack, even a custom-fit one, able to distribute weight to your hips? Or, do you have to rely more on the shoulder straps?

Thanks for all the info... whew, my pencil is down to a nubbin with all this information!

[adrenalated]

Oh man, I totally sandbagged you on the Trion. Sorry, I should have checked your link.
When you said Trion Pro, I for some reason was thinking of the old Trion Guide, which looks like this:


That one doesn't fit avy gear worth shit.

The second Trion Pro you linked looks awesome. I think that will carry avy gear extremely well, judging from the photo. (I think the first one you linked is the outgoing model).

[shafty85]

No worries - all taken care of. Went with the Mammut Trion Pro 35+7 fr: BC.com - figured, worst case Ontario, if it doesn't fit me right, I simply return it.

[auvgeek]

auvgeek, congrats on the engagement. Frameless... just not sure I can be sold on a frameless pack. I can understand the weight consideration, but I would be willing to sacrifice some weight for better performance. You and BigSteve are likely more able to comment on this, but is a frameless pack, even a custom-fit one, able to distribute weight to your hips? Or, do you have to rely more on the shoulder straps?

Thanks, man! I think the AT pack distributes weight to my hips just fine. But YMMV. Like I said, I probably only carried 30# with it, max. Frankly, I think it carries better than the 30L Mammut pack or the 50L Osprey pack I've used in the past. Not quite as well as the MR Blackjack, but that pack is amazing.

Sounds like you'll be very happy with your Mammut pack, though. Just figured I'd respond to your questions.

[shafty85]

Thanks, man! I think the AT pack distributes weight to my hips just fine. But YMMV. Like I said, I probably only carried 30# with it, max. Frankly, I think it carries better than the 30L Mammut pack or the 50L Osprey pack I've used in the past. Not quite as well as the MR Blackjack, but that pack is amazing.

Sounds like you'll be very happy with your Mammut pack, though. Just figured I'd respond to your questions.

Much appreciated. I'll be swinging through Calgary this summer, so will stop in to see Neil. Figured I would take advantage of the BC sale and just return it if it doesn't fit the way I'd like. My biggest concern would be when carrying ropes and gear for glaciers, belaying/rappelling, etc - not sure the frameless pack (any, not just AT) would be able to carry all the weight. That being said, I appreciate all the information - it just leads to more informed decisions.