Marker kingpin prerelease while skinning

[korkdal]

While the Kingpin skis just great, I'm having problems with the binding prereleasing while skinning in walk mode. I have the upgraded toe piece.

It seems that there is enough flex in the plastic itself that I can twist my boots out with the toe locked. It's the plastic that gives a little, not the spring mechanism. It does not take a lot of force, and happens frequently when I traverse on steep hard or icy slopes. Happens to both bindings.

Has anyone else seen this? I'm 184 cm, ~100 kg.

TK

[Skidog]

Doesnt this kinda effect all touring bindings? Hard icy traverses put a like of side pressure on toe or rail (if rail style). Do you feel its more pronounced with kingpin v dynafit?

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Which plastic part is deforming?

[korkdal]

Do you feel its more pronounced with kingpin v dynafit?

Much more pronounced. I've hardly ever had this happen with locked out Dynafits (Radical FT). With the Kingpins, I can easily twist my foot out, even on flat ground. There really is a lot of give in the plastic surrounding the metal prongs holding the pins.

[korkdal]

Which plastic part is deforming?

It's the entire front housing, it simply widens a bit when I twist my boot sideways. So the distance between the prongs holding the pins widens just enough to let the boot go. The mechanism itself does not move at all, so it's not play in the hinges, springs or lever causing this. I'm using Scarpa Maestrale RS boots, I think they should be OK.

[1000-oaks]

Not trying to be a smart ass, but do you have the lever flipped up like this when skinning?
http://www.oslosportslager.no/upload.../63229-800.jpg

[galibier_numero_un]

To the OP: Could you shift this conversation to the consolidated Kingpin thread (http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...quot-King-quot)?

... Thom

[korkdal]

Not trying to be a smart ass, but do you have the lever flipped up like this when skinning?
http://www.oslosportslager.no/upload.../63229-800.jpg

Absolutely. The mechanism is rock solid, none of the moving parts have any give or play. If you look at the picture you posted, it is the black plastic that is raised up around the gold aluminium "arms" that has some give in it. The part of the plastic outside the screw fixing the binding to the ski flexes a little. And yes, the binding is snug to the surface of the ski.

[wasatchback]

Are you positive all of the snow is out from under the springs? You can get the binding to close but it won't close all the way if there is any snow under there. That is one negative about the "6 pack" is it traps a shit load more snow. I've seen two people have issues coming out when skinning for this exact reason. As soon as all the snow was removed there were no more release problems when the binding was locked.

What boot are you running?

[korkdal]

I'm running Scarpa Maestrale RS. Pretty sure all the snow is out, I can reproduce the problem immediately after taking the skis out of the car.

[tenB]

I had similar problems with the plastic on the dukes. It was so soft that I could flex them side to side almost 10 degrees each direction in ski mode. It sounds like they're using the same plastic on the Kingpin.

[1000-oaks]

^ That totally contradicts Wildsnow testing a few years back, could have been an AFD adjustment or boot interface issue such as a rubber AT sole that wasn't sanded flat to match the AFD. The three pair of Scarpa AT boots I've owned all had a thicker lug on the center of the AFD, which had to be ground down about 50% to allow boot contact the full width of the AFD. If you don't grind it down the boot can rock in the binding, and it's not the bindings fault.

Looks like the Kingpin toe has a steel frame (going by the photos, haven't seen one in person) similar to the Dynafit Vertical, so the plastic shroud is mostly flashy cosmetics. Something else is probably going on.

[XavierD]

Would it be too much to ask for some photos or videos?

[korkdal]

Yeah, I'll try to get one done tomorrow.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

A classic tech binding-boot problem that causes unwanted release is when the boot sole rubber is in contact with the toe wings. I haven't even fondled the Kinpgins, but if the boot lugs are pushing against the toe wing, that could be the source of your problem. Easy to fix by slightly grinding down the sole.

[XXX-er]

If the Kingpin are'nt working for you i think Marker would like you to return them

[1000-oaks]

A classic tech binding-boot problem that causes unwanted release is when the boot sole rubber is in contact with the toe wings.

For sure, was surprised how much rubber I had to grind off the corners of my Maestrale RS's to take the pressure off the wings on Ions.

[galibier_numero_un]

A classic tech binding-boot problem that causes unwanted release is when the boot sole rubber is in contact with the toe wings. I haven't even fondled the Kinpgins, but if the boot lugs are pushing against the toe wing, that could be the source of your problem. Easy to fix by slightly grinding down the sole.

Could you clarify this? It's something I've never explored in all these years. Are you saying that the rubber is wider than the plastic part of the boot's toe? I need to look at my Maestrales & Titans.

Thanks,
Thom

[tenB]

^ That totally contradicts Wildsnow testing a few years back, could have been an AFD adjustment or boot interface issue such as a rubber AT sole that wasn't sanded flat to match the AFD. The three pair of Scarpa AT boots I've owned all had a thicker lug on the center of the AFD, which had to be ground down about 50% to allow boot contact the full width of the AFD. If you don't grind it down the boot can rock in the binding, and it's not the bindings fault.


Looks like the Kingpin toe has a steel frame (going by the photos, haven't seen one in person) similar to the Dynafit Vertical, so the plastic shroud is mostly flashy cosmetics. Something else is probably going on.

^^ I don't know who these wildsnow people are, but I was using standard din alpine boots and the toe hight adjustment and afd contact was spot on. Many other users of dukes have had the same problem, some of us have made warranty claims and received new ones, and my replacement dukes had the same problem after a dozen or so days. I'm not down in marker in general, their non touring bindings are solid binders, but for dukes to develop that amount of lateral tilt and slop is unacceptable in my book.

[Skidog]

^^ I don't know who these wildsnow people are,

Really? Time to do some more research. Lou @ Wildsnow basically gets EVERY piece of touring equipment known to man, most times before release and puts them ALL through the wringer...real life and bench test. Pretty sure Lee Lau is part of the testing crew. In any event if you havent been to the site, its high time you get there. Lou and his team will likely have put the stuff through the same or likely worse conditions than most will encounter.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Could you clarify this? It's something I've never explored in all these years. Are you saying that the rubber is wider than the plastic part of the boot's toe? I need to look at my Maestrales & Titans.

Thanks,
Thom

With more companies making tech binding and boots without any strict standard for dimensions, some boot-binding combinations can result in the black rubber boot sole lugs coming into contact with the toe wing beneath the pin (it's not that the rubber is wider, it's that the rubber is lower). If the lugs exert enough pressure on the toe wing this can obviously lead to unwanted release. Luckily its easy to solve by grinding off just enough of the rubber that there is no contact. This can also be an issue with brakes. If the heel lugs are catching on the brake it can have the opposite effect, preventing release when it should occur.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I had similar problems with the plastic on the dukes. It was so soft that I could flex them side to side almost 10 degrees each direction in ski mode. It sounds like they're using the same plastic on the Kingpin.

^ That totally contradicts Wildsnow testing a few years back

I think you're talking about different issues. Lou tested the lateral stiffness of brand new Dukes. It is excellent. But Dukes do flex in walk mode, enough the plate can pop off the the side of the lifters (I believe this is also mentioned on wildsnow), and they can develop slop over time, especially if they're repeatedly forced into ski mode when there is snow build up.

[adrenalated]

Really? Time to do some more research. Lou @ Wildsnow basically gets EVERY piece of touring equipment known to man, most times before release and puts them ALL through the wringer...real life and bench test. Pretty sure Lee Lau is part of the testing crew. In any event if you havent been to the site, its high time you get there. Lou and his team will likely have put the stuff through the same or likely worse conditions than most will encounter.

Yes and no. True, they get a lot of touring gear and test it quite thoroughly, but with only a few exceptions, the writers/reviewers aren't exactly hard-charging skiers like many young freeride skiers are. Like any other review, their reviews are best taken with a grain of salt and an understanding of the biases of the reviewer.

[Skidog]

Yes and no. True, they get a lot of touring gear and test it quite thoroughly, but with only a few exceptions, the writers/reviewers aren't exactly hard-charging skiers like many young freeride skiers are. Like any other review, their reviews are best taken with a grain of salt and an understanding of the biases of the reviewer.

Agreed, they are more of what most here would call "meadow skippers", but his bench tests and dissection of gear is pretty spot on usually.

YMMV, but the site is a resource I would use in conjunction with others.

For the particular issue from the OP, id say Lous team would've covered that type issue if it was occurring frequently. I mean meadow skipping or not they are surely side hilling on the skin track.

[LeeLau]

Really? Time to do some more research. Lou @ Wildsnow basically gets EVERY piece of touring equipment known to man, most times before release and puts them ALL through the wringer...real life and bench test. Pretty sure Lee Lau is part of the testing crew. In any event if you havent been to the site, its high time you get there. Lou and his team will likely have put the stuff through the same or likely worse conditions than most will encounter.

I do some travel writing for them but I'm too light to really stress out gear. Haven't had that problem with the kingpin. But I'm only 75kg 165 lbs. Bigger guys put way more stress on gear