Bitterroot National Forest Travel Plan

[tromano]

Been a while since I last posted here. Fun thread. When I worked for USFS, it seemed like so much of the decision making was driven by the need to avoid law suits and it seems to still be the case.

"Uses that do not conform to wilderness character creates a constituency that willhave a strong propensity to oppose recommendation and any subsequent designation legislation.Management actions that create this operating environment will complicate the decision process for ForestService managers and members of Congress." Great quote, wonderful conversation starter. Should be part of a public awareness campaign.

[stuckathuntermtn]

I think a lot of decision making everywhere is about avoiding lawsuits.

[toast2266]

The problem is no one is suing on behalf of bikes. When the Wilderness contingent doesn't get what they want, there's any number of organizations that are more than willing to file suit. But when bikers don't get what we want, we pretty much just sit back and complain about it on the internet. And for good reason - lawsuits cost a shitload of money, and the only organization that has the potential to wade into a legal battle (IMBA) doesn't do shit on that front.

[406]

And for good reason - lawsuits cost a shitload of money, and the only organization that has the potential to wade into a legal battle (IMBA) doesn't do shit on that front.

I'm not sure they could

IMBA counts about 80,000 supporters, or about 1 percent of active riders. If that percentage were to increase by a single decimal point, you can be assured that there would be substantially more places to ride, with less risk of losing access, than the reality we face today. (For comparison, The Wilderness Society counts more than 500,000 active supporters and has an operating budget ten times the size of IMBA's.)

[toast2266]

I'm not sure they could

Agreed. While I bitch about IMBA sometimes, there's no question that they don't really have the resources to do (much) more. But part of my problem with IMBA is that they haven't made the push to raise capital to take on those lawsuits. I know of several Wilderness advocacy organizations that successfully brought lawsuits against the FS years ago, and now they continue to have support and get funding in large part because of their past success. If IMBA took a more aggressive stance, perhaps they'd have something to brag about and they'd gain more supporters.

That's not to say that IMBA is horrible by any means. But as far as I can tell, they're pretty heavy on the capitulation in return for trails; they'll agree to recommended wilderness as long as they get to build some new trail elsewhere. That isn't always a terrible tactic, but there's only so much space left to give up.

[TahoeBC]

This article showed up in my facebook feed today, maybe some of you would be interested.

http://www.bitterrootstar.com/2015/0...king-anything/

[tellybele]

This email showed up in my inbox this morning...This group is primarily a smug, holier than thou group that most likely met at a prep school back east or in the EVST program...
The folks I know in the group are mountain bikers and must prefer the carriage trails of the rattlesnake.



Fellow Powder Hounds-

We have a great opportunity to step up and support quiet winter recreation in our backyard:


Last month, the Bitterroot National Forest released their draft travel management plan. When finalized, this plan will guide motorized recreation activities across the entire forest, including which trails and areas are open to motorized recreation and which aren’t. The Bitterroot included over-the-snow-vehicles in this travel plan, which is great.


The draft plan prohibits snowmobiles in all Wilderness Study Areas and Recommended Wilderness Areas on the forest. These areas include parts of the Sapphire Crest adjacent to the Anaconda-Pintler Wilderness and the Blue Joint area adjacent to the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness area. Additionally, small pockets of terrain immediately east of the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness are included as well. Many of these areas, the Sapphire Crest and Blue Joint areas specifically, have allowed snowmobiles in the past.


Prohibiting motorized activities in these areas is a big deal and we need to step up to defend the Forest’s actions. Forest Supervisor Julie King is getting pushback from motorized groups who want to see the status quo preserved in the final plan and it’s important for backcountry skiers and others who value quiet opportunities for human-powered winter recreation so support her decision and encourage the Bitterroot National Forest to finalize the draft plan with these protections in place.


One of the best ways we can show that we support this plan is to email Supervisor King. Please take a couple of minutes to send Supervisor King a quick email telling her that you appreciate her courageous approach to protecting winter wildlands on the Bitterroot National Forest. Her email address is jkking@fs.fed.us

Thanks!


P.S. Not sure what to say? Try this: “Dear Supervisor King. I just wanted to let you know that I support your decision to prohibit snowmobiles within Recommended Wilderness and Wilderness Study Areas on the Bitterroot National Forest. This decision will protect quiet recreation opportunities and sensitive wildlife habitat, and maintain the potential for these wilderness-quality lands to be included within the Selway-Bitterroot and Frank Church-River of No Return Wilderness areas.”




--
Montana Backcountry Alliance
P.O. Box 8691
Missoula, MT 59807

[creaky fossil]

I think a lot of decision making everywhere is about avoiding lawsuits.

You know this as someone with a BA in Computer User Technical Support, eh?

Agreed. While I bitch about IMBA sometimes, there's no question that they don't really have the resources to do (much) more. But part of my problem with IMBA is that they haven't made the push to raise capital to take on those lawsuits. I know of several Wilderness advocacy organizations that successfully brought lawsuits against the FS years ago, and now they continue to have support and get funding in large part because of their past success. If IMBA took a more aggressive stance, perhaps they'd have something to brag about and they'd gain more supporters.

That's not to say that IMBA is horrible by any means. But as far as I can tell, they're pretty heavy on the capitulation in return for trails; they'll agree to recommended wilderness as long as they get to build some new trail elsewhere. That isn't always a terrible tactic, but there's only so much space left to give up.

Yeah, never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Is this Harvard/MIT Masshole Braintrust Thinking, or what?

You write like you're fellating IMBA while pretending to criticize that bullshit entity. Guess a guy's gotta get ahead somehow.

What exactly would it cost for Montana MTB riders to sue USFS? Tell us smart guy. Tell us why it's so cost-prohibitive.

This email showed up in my inbox this morning...This group is primarily a smug, holier than thou group that most likely met at a prep school back east or in the EVST program...

or douchebags who moved to Missoula for the image, while working computer tech support for idiots and pontificating on TGR SR forum as great know-it-alls despite massive ignorance

or smugtards who moved to Missoula for Griz Law, then moved away to Greater Smugville in Flathead County, from which locale they smugly bear upon naysayers who know the landscape better than themselves

"We are here to gentrify Montana with our noble East Coast Smartguy Perspectives. Montana needs to be less like Montana, and more like Westchester County NY, Upper West Side NYC, or the greater Boston metro area."

[406]

Seems like it would be good to support the Bitterroot Backcountry Cyclists
http://www.bitterrootbackcountrycyclists.org/

[creaky fossil]

Seems like it would be good to support the Bitterroot Backcountry Cyclists
http://www.bitterrootbackcountrycyclists.org/

If they're not suing USFS, why support them? Because they give themselves good PR? Our boy Lance Pysher says he wants to protect the trails, but he busies himself promoting the same trails for greater user number. In what universe is increasing user numbers protecting the trails -- especially where maintenance is forbidden by USFS?

[stuckathuntermtn]

Power sports hobbyists could do them selves a favor by being a lot more sober.
I don't see the big deal about a few snowmobiles in the winter in the middle of nowhere with everything covered in 10' of snow, but fuck: every spring, anywhere snowmobiles are allowed is a fucking disaster. Maybe try to pick up a beer can or a shotgun shell? Maybe don't leave broken pieces of snowmobile everywhere? Idiots.

[tellybele]

Montana needs to be less like Montana

This is exactly the point eh?? and they call it....progressive

It is progressive to change/legislate to what the new money/people want a place to be. After all, they are smarter and have hella more $$ then the usual/casual Montana redneck.

[MTslackcountry]

Fuck the Montana Backcountry Alliance. There are plenty of places to ski that don't have noise pollution. Motorized use restrictions have become more and more common. We have been telling mountain bikers that they are next. Well that is now reality. Its not going to stop with just the bitterroot.... I enjoy backcountry skiing, snowmobiling, dirtbiking and mountain biking. One thing there is no shortage of around here is backcountry skiing in areas closed to snowmobiles.

The MBA dick bags, state this in their mission statement: Designated non-motorized areas with reasonable access will provide the safe and relaxing experience that traditional winter recreationists seek out.

Reasonable access come on! If you want reasonable access move to Jackson and ski the pass with a million others. The best thing about skiing around western Montana is you have it all to yourself. This is because access is difficult and strenuous and totally worth it.

There needs to be balance and each group needs places to go. This is becoming more and more difficult for certain groups. Montana is headed in the wrong direction when it comes to land access, and there travel use restrictions. Aside from wilderness areas I ride where I want. I urge others to do the same. The Forest service does not have enough man power to patrol every single trail and access point. If you run into hikers or whatever on your bike slow down, be polite and move on.

[tellybele]

StuckInShitHoleMT, how many packer/hunter camps have you encountered in the BC? Both operating or abandoned?

Believe me, I am not defending the litter I see from OHV users.

[creaky fossil]

Power sports hobbyists could do them selves a favor by being a lot more sober.
I don't see the big deal about a few snowmobiles in the winter in the middle of nowhere with everything covered in 10' of snow, but fuck: every spring, anywhere snowmobiles are allowed is a fucking disaster. Maybe try to pick up a beer can or a shotgun shell? Maybe don't leave broken pieces of snowmobile everywhere? Idiots.

The guy who leaves his apartment every other Thursday to ride with MTB Missoula, but otherwise knows nothing of Missoula's woods-hills-or-their-users, he's the expert here. A fat fuck who can't ride a bike and barely can ski, he's the expert here. A hyper closet-case douchenozzle who moved here to brag to Westchester Co NY homies about how hard-assed and tough-guy he is OUT THERE IN MONTANA yet never does anything here, he's the one to consult.

fat fraud for the win!

StuckInShitHoleMT, how many packer/hunter camps have you encountered in the BC? Both operating or abandoned?

Believe me, I am not defending the litter I see from OHV users.

fat fraud never gets more than 2 miles away from Civilization, how would he know anything?

This is exactly the point eh?? and they call it....progressive

It is progressive to change/legislate to what the new money/people want a place to be. After all, they are smarter and have hella more $$ then the usual/casual Montana redneck.

dude -- didn't you get the rideit memo? Trusted trustafarian broheem Wendell Stam says in the rideit memo that the only way one can live in the rural west is to move there, then once there make every effort to make it exactly like where you moved from. Gentrifying is the noble route. Montana is dangerously backward, reactionary Christian Cracker bigots who don't have any patience for economic vampires, trendy trustafarian fucktards, or social media promoters. Clearly that must change, and to get there, we just have to consult Wendell Stam, who -- he will remind us time and again -- is the coolest bro-heemy-bro ever to walk the planet.

[MTslackcountry]

Power sports hobbyists could do them selves a favor by being a lot more sober.
I don't see the big deal about a few snowmobiles in the winter in the middle of nowhere with everything covered in 10' of snow, but fuck: every spring, anywhere snowmobiles are allowed is a fucking disaster. Maybe try to pick up a beer can or a shotgun shell? Maybe don't leave broken pieces of snowmobile everywhere? Idiots.

Where the fuck have you been that snowmobiles frequent in the winter? I sled and ski 3 days a week all winter and never see beer cans and shotgun shells anywhere. Also anyone that gets rad on sleds doesn't drink while doing so. We drink a few before the ride our but nobody knowingly leaves beer cans and trash around. I have been numerous times to sledding meccas like, Cooke city, island park, seeley lake etc. and have never seen beer cans and trash. Your making that shit up.

[creaky fossil]

Your making that shit up.

That's what he does. Mostly because he's a ZERO in person. But hey, he's got a small cult following on TGR, so that counts for everything.

You really think a fatfuck who hardly ever goes outside knows anything about even "front"-country? He barely even goes there. But on facebook and on TGR, he's practically the second coming of Alex Lowe. Supposedly, this is "irony" and is entertaining. I would grant that it's entertaining watching him ski or ride a bike, but mostly because his skills are laughably pitiful.

[406]

If they're not suing USFS, why support them?

maybe you could work pro bono On what grounds could the USFS be sued? What law did they break?

Because they give themselves good PR? Our boy Lance Pysher says he wants to protect the trails, but he busies himself promoting the same trails for greater user number. In what universe is increasing user numbers protecting the trails -- especially where maintenance is forbidden by USFS?

I guess it is the old debate that people will only get involved if they are losing something they care about. They hardly seem to have a sophisticated PR machine. I just thought the letter was good, and it seemed like a good approach to comment on the NEPA. More members = more resources to fight for trails. Posting rants on TGR certainly doesn't accomplish anything.

[tellybele]

creaky sounds well greased. Think about it. The rideit attitude is exactly what gentrifies via the auspice of the progressive, rad lifestyle, crusher lifestyle of the new OutdoorLifestyler. The $$ of the few will ruin the the free fun of the common person. But hey, most of them are rednecks and could never understand the cool that is of the educated OutdoorLifestyler that must invade the 'space' of the outside with their ideals.

"Your making that shit up. " Of course he is. Shotgun shells from 'bilers??

[creaky fossil]

maybe you could work pro bono

I spent most of a decade urging LIMB/MTB Missoula toward a lawsuit. While I could pursue it pro bono after reactivating my MT bar license, a person can't sue on behalf of a group of users unless representing them. There's this thing called "standing" that maybe Burnt Toast, J.D. could inform you on. I can't be bothered.

MTB Missoula has the $$$ to pay someone. But during that decade, the leaders of LIMB/MTB Missoula thought litigation was coarse, rough, uncivilized, uncouth, and simply not Progressive. They thought I was asking for ruined relations with USFS. Such naivete, they sounded then like Burnt Toast, J.D. does now.

On what grounds could the USFS be sued? What law did they break?

There are quite a few avenues, I've detailed 2 or 3 of them in the past in this very forum, but the "experts" like x have told me I'm wrong. Their mail-order JDs told them so.

Did you know that if you raced BMX in your teens, that makes you smarter in litigation matters than everyone else? I didn't know that until Wx) told me so.

creaky sounds well greased. Think about it. The rideit attitude is exactly what gentrifies via the auspice of the progressive, rad lifestyle, crusher lifestyle of the new OutdoorLifestyler. The $$ of the few will ruin the the free fun of the common person. But hey, most of them are rednecks and could never understand the cool that is of the educated OutdoorLifestyler that must invade the 'space' of the outside with their ideals.

"Your making that shit up. " Of course he is. Shotgun shells from 'bilers??

Listen dude. x tells us that what works for him in Tahoe is what matters. x tells us that what worked for him in the Tetons is what matters. x tells us that what works for him in the Flathead is what matters. Not a single one of these fucks has tried working with the authorities in Region 1 for MSO trails/access. Not a single one. What they do have over idiots like me, however, is a superior understanding of how much social media profile building, TGR rep boosting, and racing BMX in one's teens provide as online authority in the absence of meatspace expertise, and on that background, they and others on TGR have assured me that my troglodytic ways are reactionary caveman idiocy.

[406]

has locus standi been used against a travel plan or Wilderness study area? Seems like an interesting idea...have the moto guys tried it?

I recall that Wilderness study areas can be managed at the desecration of the local agency, so long as they maintain "Wilderness" quality. There are examples of MTB being allowed in some Wilderness Study areas and obviously lots of examples of MTB prior to designation. I think that is the angle to take and then hope Congress never gets around to passing a bill making the area Wilderness.

[creaky fossil]

I guess it is the old debate that people will only get involved if they are losing something they care about. They hardly seem to have a sophisticated PR machine. I just thought the letter was good, and it seemed like a good approach to comment on the NEPA. More members = more resources to fight for trails. Posting rants on TGR certainly doesn't accomplish anything.

Our boy Lance (Link, Secret Chimp) Pysher has done a lot of selfie-ing, trail review-ing, etc on a few websites, trying to boost his own image as an authority of recent vintage (much like stuckie), and indirectly boost the image of the badass selfie-taking selfpromoter who is going to fix Montana for everyone who also recently moved here from somewhere else and is terrified that we have to take care of ourselves out here, and nobody's watching out for dangerous cracker rednecks who know nothing of selfie-taking self-promotion or the nobility of the gentrifying urge.

I like the bit about "rants" and the implication (what is this, the 4th time now in this thread) that I and others in MSO haven't ever tried to do anything about this problem, this long-standing ever-brewing problem. You're correct, of course. I never did a thing around here, nor has anyone else. The only ones doing something are stuckie and Lance Pysher.

[406]

I like the bit about "rants" and the implication (what is this, the 4th time now in this thread) that I and others in MSO haven't ever tried to do anything about this problem, this long-standing ever-brewing problem.

That wasn't my intention, directed more at the "what do we do" crowd.

[creaky fossil]

Clever use of "butthurt," invoking the spirit of Wendell and Kevin. Good work. Is he conversing, or setting us up for an insult? We just can't tell. Damn it all to hell.

Lance Pysher's letter and similar IMBA urgings to sign the "petition to Obama" on MTB access -- they are exactly the kinds of BS that feel like doing something while actually doing nothing. Sorta like how voting for Obama-Biden was imagined to bring a big change from Bush-Cheney. Hey! Wait! We were hoping for change!

[406]

Clever use of "butthurt," invoking the spirit of Wendell and Kevin. Good work. Is he conversing, or setting us up for an insult? We just can't tell. Damn it all to hell.

Lance Pysher's letter and similar IMBA urgings to sign the "petition to Obama" on MTB access -- they are exactly the kinds of BS that feel like doing something while actually doing nothing. Sorta like how voting for Obama-Biden was imagined to bring a big change from Bush-Cheney. Hey! Wait! We were hoping for change!

Sorry for the insult, just joking around.

My motivation is simple, I'm a big fan of backcountry bike riding.

I agree the ""petition to Obama" on MTB access" is a joke. I still think commenting on NEPA's and other official comment periods is a good idea.