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  1. #101
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    Protests are a great fucking ski. Fixed everything I hated about the powderboards I owned for two runs. More detailed review to come.

  2. #102
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    shit. why couldn't I have just said that

  3. #103
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    2016 PRAXIS info, mounting and resource guide

    119 Protest would be great, but it is still a non-versatile pow specific shape. I think more support for shorter Wootests would not be misplaced, as this fits well into the touring spectrum.

    I think it is telling what skis you reach for over a season of frequent use.

    Looking back over my powder season, I skied CCR GPO's nearly every day. Only 2 days on PB's, perhaps 5-10 on Protests. 50 or so on CCR GPO. And that was not due to a lack of powder. Context: 99.3% touring, no resort skiing except for end-of-day 4km long groomer exits from the backcountry, which was enough to put me off Protests many times. I bet if I had some UL 125 GPO-shaped skis, I'd ski them almost exclusively v.s. Protests. I think the amount of Protest width ahead of the foot puts too much torsional strain on shitty AT boots in anything not >20cm deep. And forget firm or groomers.

    Also the 35 days on BC's. Such a versatile ski (as I/we keep saying). Two days ago on 'em:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Picked up some cheap-ish Volkl Nunataqs to compare.
    Last edited by neck beard; 04-20-2015 at 04:56 PM.
    Life is not lift served.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard View Post
    119 Protest would be great, but it still a non-versatile pow specific shape. I think more support for shorter Wootests would not be misplaced, as this fits well into the touring spectrum.

    I think it is telling what skis you reach for over a season of frequent use

    Looking back over my powder season, I skied CCR GPO's nearly every day. Only 2 days on PB's, perhaps 5-10 on Protests. 50 or so on CCR GPO. And that was not due to a lack of powder. Context: 100% touring, no resort skiing.

    Also the 35 days on BC's. Such a versatile ski (as I/we keep saying). Two days ago on 'em:

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	166425

    Picked up some cheap-ish Volkl Nunataqs to compare.
    And here I was quite happy with my 12 days of Japan powder touring on my Protests; pales somewhat into significance compared with the above...

    119 Protest at 182 or a slightly shorter Wootest; both would suit my purposes just fine. And in fact, for the skiing I do, either could be a quiver of one.

    In terms of just skiing, the 187 Wootest would too, but slightly shorter would make getting to the goods that much easier.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard View Post
    119 Protest would be great, but it is still a non-versatile pow specific shape. I think more support for shorter Wootests would not be misplaced, as this fits well into the touring spectrum.

    I think it is telling what skis you reach for over a season of frequent use.

    Looking back over my powder season, I skied CCR GPO's nearly every day. Only 2 days on PB's, perhaps 5-10 on Protests. 50 or so on CCR GPO. And that was not due to a lack of powder. Context: 99.3% touring, no resort skiing except for end-of-day 4km long groomer exits from the backcountry, which was enough to put me off Protests many times. I bet if I had some UL 125 GPO-shaped skis, I'd ski them almost exclusively v.s. Protests. I think the amount of Protest width ahead of the foot puts too much torsional strain on shitty AT boots in anything not >20cm deep. And forget firm or groomers.

    Also the 35 days on BC's. Such a versatile ski (as I/we keep saying). Two days ago on 'em:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ImageUploadedByTGR Forums1429569355.019922.jpg 
Views:	392 
Size:	703.9 KB 
ID:	166425

    Picked up some cheap-ish Volkl Nunataqs to compare.
    Spray day eh. Was one of my fave spots. I think I'm done though. Now a hill rat and occasional BC meadow skipper. 119 would fit nicely

  6. #106
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    2016 PRAXIS info, mounting and resource guide

    Grinch - yeap, was my first time there. Back in Japan this morning.

    Mads - Sure as heck nothing wrong with the Protest in its element. But for some reason I just wasn't reaching for them every day. It is perhaps relevant that I am a light and short person with skinny feet and ankles carrying a heavy-ish back pack, and therefore I tend to prefer skis that are "low strain" in a wider variety of conditions.
    Life is not lift served.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard View Post
    Grinch - yeap, was my first time there. Back in Japan this morning.

    Mads - Sure as heck nothing wrong with the Protest in its element. But for some reason I just wasn't reaching for them every day. It is perhaps relevant that I am a light and short person with skinny feet and ankles carrying a heavy-ish back pack, and therefore I tend to prefer skis that are "low strain" in a wider variety of conditions.
    I was just having a laugh at my own expense, re your exorbitant amount of ski days vs my paltry few; not being a smart arse re ski choice.

    But yes, the torque thing would my main gripe with the Protest. As it happened, it was a non issue in Japan due to the beautiful/bountiful snow.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Island Bay View Post
    I was just having a laugh at my own expense, re your exorbitant amount of ski days vs my paltry few; not being a smart arse re ski choice.

    But yes, the torque thing would my main gripe with the Protest. As it happened, it was a non issue in Japan due to the beautiful/bountiful snow.
    I'm wit ya. well over 100 days of touring, I bet he's grown a third lung

  9. #109
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    calm down, it isn't that much of a big deal. For the most, ski touring is just fancy walking. And I pace myself day to day, lots of easy outings, which are easy to score in Japan. Not so easy in Rogers Pass, by comparison. Anyway, 100 days of banging resort off-piste is WAY harder.
    Life is not lift served.

  10. #110
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    for skinning, I am looking for sub 8 lb skis these days...
    so I found the 175 UL GPO at 111 mm great for skinning (recurve not CCR) and winter soft snow touring.

    For bootpack accessed bc skiing, like teton pass, a heavier ski is ok, and I was digging my carbon hybrid protests for those days
    I can and have skinned with the protests, but there is more skin drag and the 8.8 lbs is more than I want to skin with normally.

    182 CCR GPO is 8.0 lbs and is likely more ski than I want for skinning

    So a 177 Protest in a 119 mm would fit the weight criterion and be a great pow ski for deep day skinning/cat skiing
    (maybe better with CCR with its larger radius)

    Or a 177-182 wootest with CCR might be a nice complement to my 175 GPO for more slarviness, although I think I'd be less inclined to but a shorter wootest, since it might overlap with the 175 GPO I already have.

    RESORT - covered by 182 GPO

    So maybe it's a quiver ski width issue...
    1 - 105-110'ish ski
    2 - mid 110-120 ski
    3 - upper 120's ski

    1 can be filled by 175- GPO or wootest
    2 can be filled by 182+ GPO or skinny protest
    3 can be filled by standard protest

    /end ramble
    Aggressive in my own mind

  11. #111
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    Height/weight, hoarhey?

  12. #112
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    5'8" 175 lbs
    173 cm, 80 kg
    Aggressive in my own mind

  13. #113
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    Keith's response and my email to him below proposing a 119mm waisted ski.

    Sounds interesting on the Protest. Also we could look at it as a fatter wootest. Its not something that I would be able to add for this upcoming year. We start summer production next week and I'll be working in the factory making the skis and it would take a lot of time to R&D and get that many new skis/sizes into the options and ready for production. Typically I have extra time to work on projects like this but we did not capture enough pre order sales this year to hire a crew back for summer production so I'm going to be full out in the factory for a few months. Kinda stoked in a way as I look forward to getting back in the factory making the skis full time..its been a few years. Maybe something we could look at down the road. Most of the time I do R&D and new product work in January and February. I would want to do some testing as when we sized down the Protest for the Wootest I'm not sure that it was a big hit, good ski and I had fun on it but I got confused by some of the feedback. I think for this I would want to design an entirely new ski rather than just modify the Protest. I agree a powder specific type ski in the 120 underfoot size would be a nice option. I used the Ullr some for this class ski and had dynafits on a pair of Ullr's for a few seasons, but I could see ways to basically modify the Ullr to make this ski as the Ullr was designed more as a resort powder ski. Or really blend what we have put into the wootest, GPO and the Protest to make a new 120 underfoot ski. But it'll be something I'd have to look at for next season.

    For the convex base its something that I'm working towards, or even a custom option on a few of the skis. But I'm not there yet on bringing it to production. As well I want to get started on the 3D base idea with just one model as its going to be tricky to implement and time consuming. Before trying to offer the idea on other ski models I want to do more testing both in production and on the hill with the 3D idea. For the powderboards I only got to ski them about half a dozen time this year and we did not get that many other people on them. I think Kevin and I are the only ones to ski them so far. They were a lot of fun and I was really impressed with how the raised bevel made the skis feel. But for sure some people would hate them. Where I was impressed that they still worked was on steeper icy turns, stuff that I was first very unsure of when dropping in. Am I going to slide like a saucer down this mountain? But, I was able to hold an edge fine and rail slide spines in new way, each run I would just have a dumb smile on my face. Had some great runs on them in the Palisades a few weeks ago with ice/firm on top and powder fields down low. So even a Protest with the full base bevel would actually work better than most people would think and I think be a fun ski. Or blending it with 3D tip only would be a great option. Just need a little more time to make it happen.

    I'll stop rambling about skis now

    To: Praxis Skis
    Subject: Re: Heli ride continued

    Hey Keith,

    I have generated interest in a 119mm waisted protest. Basically the current 163cm length stretched out to 177, 187 and 193. Maybe give it slightly more sidecut (29m) than the wootest.

    I am also wondering if you have the ability to do the convex base in just the tip. 35cm or so. And if this (spoon-test? Con-test? Nov-test? Re-test) is a ski you would consider building.
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  14. #114
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    Interesting info. (I think Keith makes time to write really long email replies to you guys by keeping his replies my emails kinda short).

    It is a pity that praxis have not generated many pre-orders this year. I guess it is a by-product of a shitty US season? I'd have placed an order by now they had a 95mm ski mountaineering/spring ski. Need one for NZ. BC was good, but too wide and pow-specific for the mostly non-pow skiing there.
    Life is not lift served.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard View Post
    Interesting info. (I think Keith makes time to write really long email replies to you guys by keeping his replies my emails kinda short).

    It is a pity that praxis have not generated many pre-orders this year. I guess it is a by-product of a shitty US season? I'd have placed an order by now they had a 95mm ski mountaineering/spring ski. Need one for NZ. BC was good, but too wide and pow-specific for the mostly non-pow skiing there.
    Keep in mind that last year down here was horrible - even by NZ standards. What about a 9D8, though? (Not that I ever felt overgunned - widthwise - on my BCs).

    So sad to hear that Praxis got so few orders; life really is not fair. Good people, good skis, always super helpful. I truly hope they bounce back in a big way.

  16. #116
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    2016 PRAXIS info, mounting and resource guide

    I always thought the 9D8 was a twin? Just checked, and am wrong. hmm, makes it more interesting. Though really small radius in the smallest length

    Also just saw the 9D for the first time.

    BC is not so much over-gunned, but slightly pow-specific. I want a ski mountaineer/spring traverse ski to be really short, like up to my chin is fine. And don't see the point of a short BC given its soft snow bias. Also, I still have an urge for a subtle full rocker on a 105mm ski with side cut. The Volkl BMT range is amazingly appealing in that regard.

    Right now comparing 9d8 and yeti...
    Last edited by neck beard; 04-21-2015 at 01:17 AM.
    Life is not lift served.

  17. #117
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    SupreChicken,
    I won't quote all that but thanks for puttin in the leg work And good ideas. Cool to hear the process and Keith's r&d and thoughts on models. Sounds like he may have some plans and similar ideas on a 120 ski.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by grinch View Post
    SupreChicken,
    I won't quote all that but thanks for puttin in the leg work And good ideas. Cool to hear the process and Keith's r&d and thoughts on models. Sounds like he may have some plans and similar ideas on a 120 ski.
    Completely agree - thanks SC and no doubt I hope this happens... With all of the reviews and huge props the Protest gets I have been jonesing to buy that ski for some time, but its current dimensions are not for me... I trust Keith in what he comes out with, but I really hope a 119 Protest shows up eventually...

    Some time ago there was a great thread and than a follow up thread concerning "How fat is to fat" and there was a ton of great discussion and debate... If I was fortunate enough to live in a place that just got dumped on regularly I might be able to see owning the current Protest, but for me I have to travel a fair amount to get to the goods... With that said since I don't know what I will be facing when traveling a ski in the 116 to 120 range pretty much gets it done for me... I currently own the GPO and a handful of other "fatties" in this range, but what is missing is a resort pow ski in this width that has the same skiing qualities that everyone on here has claimed... I do own a pair of 196 4Frnt Renegades and I absolutely love this ski, but after a full day of skiing hard on it regardless of shape you know you are on one big ass fattie...

    And not surprising about the pre-order for next year... The past two seasons has to have been hard on the industry... Last week on Steep and Cheap under Gear Cache I was floored by the pricing listed for some very popular skis that have been discussed here on TGR (Liberty Double Helix for $225, Hojis for $320, etc...)... My local shop got crushed last year and ended up with a ton of gear at the end of the season that hey ended up blowing out for cost... This year they scaled back their inventory across the board as they did not want a repeat of last year and they still had a fair amount of inventory left...

    As stated before I have become a huge fanboy of Praxis skis and placed my order for custom 190 BCs... I don't know if it is because I am skiing indie skis the majority of the time now, but I only got out on my Line 115 192s once this year and just did not like them... This was a ski that I have enjoyed big time in the past, but somehow Praxis can build a burly ski that has life in it, but damp at the same time... The same can be said when comparing my SNDs and Headmonster 78s... I grew up ski racing as a kid and was a huge Vokl metal ski fan and never thought this would change, but the metal skis I have currently and have enjoyed just seem lifeless and to some degree dead compared to Praxis and some of the other indies... If I like the 190 BC half as much as I like my MVP and GPOs I am going to end up owning another killer ski...

    Keep it up boys and put me down for the new model in the Rastaman topsheet when Keith gets some down time...

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undertow View Post
    ...I do own a pair of 196 4Frnt Renegades and I absolutely love this ski, but after a full day of skiing hard on it regardless of shape you know you are on one big ass fattie...

    .
    For my .02 the Protest is about a thousand times easier skiing than the Renegade. I can't count how many days I've used Protests. I've used Renegades in mixed conditions for two half days and both times felt like I'd been beaten up. Protests on similar days would have taken a little more work than average - but nothing close to saying on top of the Renegades. That said, Protests on long icy runs or traverses are admittedly out of their element - though there is no news there.

    When the option is available, every member of my family who skis regularly - ranging from about 5'7", 150 pounds to 6'1", 210 pounds - chooses to use Protests for big day resort skiing (though I sometimes pull out the Powderboards for that).

  20. #120
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    with respect to few preorders...
    I feel Praxis could do more to leverage their UL construction with the touring market
    An easy way to do this (in my opinion) would be to send some UL samples in mid-170's lengths to wildsnow
    Dawson has a big following and the 175 GPO at 111 mm and 7,3 lbs would fare really well as a powder ski for that demo

    I know Keith doesn't like to try and pay to get into reviews, but, for the cost of one pair of skis (175 cm GPO's), it might be a good investment with that crowd.
    Aggressive in my own mind

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoarhey View Post
    I know Keith doesn't like to try and pay to get into reviews, but, for the cost of one pair of skis (175 cm GPO's), it might be a good investment with that crowd.
    totally agree! there is only so much the word of mouth can do for you!

    look at the massive demo work on3p has been doing these days to get more people on their skis!

    praxis has everything to nail down the touring market, just needs a little more work to get the skis out there!

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfa81 View Post
    totally agree! there is only so much the word of mouth can do for you!

    look at the massive demo work on3p has been doing these days to get more people on their skis!

    praxis has everything to nail down the touring market, just needs a little more work to get the skis out there!
    Agreed...! I purchased a pair of first gen ON3P Wrenegades and for years when skiing them no one knew who they were... This year at Bach and Snowbird I saw several on ON3P skis and the handful I talked to all said they purchased after they got a chance to demo... The same could not be said when I was on my Praxis's... I did not see one pair on my travels and of course had several people ask about them as they never heard about them...

    I guess it just depends on what Keith wants out of the company...!

  23. #123
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    Praxis and ON3P have very different business models.

    Praxis is focusing on small volume, direct-to-consumer sales and semi-custom construction. ON3P is focusing on a higher volume, retailer-based, non-customizable sales model. Neither one is better nor worse IMO, just different directions and goals. Fortunately, both companies make great skis.

  24. #124
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    Praxis won't be going towards demo fleets, etc
    I think providing skis to bloggers of influence could result in higher sales with less investment

    Wildsnow and earnyourturns come to mind as potential blogs
    Dawson and dostie
    Aggressive in my own mind

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoarhey View Post
    Praxis won't be going towards demo fleets, etc
    I think providing skis to bloggers of influence could result in higher sales with less investment

    Wildsnow and earnyourturns come to mind as potential blogs
    Dawson and dostie
    I agreee in general, but much as there are some great resources on Wildsnow, Lou's philosophy leans more toward the lightest possible disposable ski (until it falls apart on him in the middle of a tour &nbsp. God help poor Keith for endorsing a full, wraparound edge with the cost of a few extra grams and the benefit of quality and durability.

    Lou's entitled to be a gram weenie, but this is contrary to Keith's philosophy of durability, quality and reliability (which I align myself with, BTW). I suppose the flip side of this is that Lou gets coverage, has influence and the comments section is an opportunity for rebuttal. There's also of course Louie, whose values lean more toward the down than the up. So maybe Wildsnow does have its benefits after all

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 04-21-2015 at 11:58 AM.
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