The TREWth about Product Development/The Birth of our Base Layers

[SILENCER]

In general, I wish base layer shirts were longer so they would stay tucked beneath the waist of your pants and not ride up in back.

This. I have a longer torso. We're always hunched over in our sport anyway. It blows my mind how much stuff is not made longer for this little fact (not talking "tall-tees" either, LOL).



I currently wear wool base layers. I dig that they don't ever smell, I dig how warm they are. I don't dig how my wife accidentally dried my favorite base layer top and now it's hers to wear.

BTW, bought my first piece of TREW gear this season, a Cosmic jacket. Freaking rules so hard, you guys are awesome, keep up the good work.

[SupreChicken]

I agree with what's been said above.

R1 is an incredible garment, but for me in the PNW, it's usually too damn hot. So a thinner merino version with a hood and a long torso and thumbholes would be dope.

I also want a thin wool t to be worn against the skin with a long cut that doesn't make me look nipped out. Slap your biggest logo right across the chest.

And if you could build a onesie that fits and looks like my first gen Canadian made trewth bib, I'd love that. Strafe and norrona are the only high quality bibs I know of. $1200 is unreasonable and the strafe is not cut for taller dudes.

[balefulstare]

I've been quite interested in the Ortovox base layer offerings, especially the Rock n' Wool one piece but it was a ltd anniversary edition so sold out. Something like it would surely be unique and really practical IMO. I could see myself living in this all winter, lol!

[bean]

^ a good onesie would be sweet. The airblaster and stoic options I tried on didn't work for a few reasons, mostly fit, comfort, and weight. Something that was little more than a quality top and bottom base layer sewn together on the sides leaving flaps (with a well thought out overlap) front and rear would be amazing.

[snuffleupagus]

yes, stoked to open up our development process. you'll see increased transparency and an increased focus on making this an inclusive process, both here, on our site, and other appropriate places. I'm going to craft a complete response to your post in due time....

[snuffleupagus]

I did read and watch before posting, so I was aware of NuYarn.
Is this really about 'input' or is it marketing?

Is a natural product like hemp or flax based linen not acceptable for some reason?

Will I smell like fish? I'd rather smell like cedar.

Buster, our intentions are sincere. There is no doubt that good info comes out of these threads. A couple of examples: 1)we have been debating the length of our bottoms and its apparent that 3/4 length is the winner. 2) zipper pocket on the mid-layer is also clearly important to folks. We want to hear from you and this is a great venue to do so.

Second, are you asking if a natural product could be the core around which the merino is spun? Unfortunately, I cannot answer this. We did not invent NuYarn technology..rather we simply discovered it in our research. Nonetheless, I will mention this to them to see if a natural fiber could work as the core.

In terms of SeaCell, you won't smell like anything! The fabric smells and appears no different than NuYarn. And it's anti-microbial properties keeps all odors away....

[snuffleupagus]

I've been quite interested in the Ortovox base layer offerings, especially the Rock n' Wool one piece but it was a ltd anniversary edition so sold out. Something like it would surely be unique and really practical IMO. I could see myself living in this all winter, lol!

i agree the Rock N Wool is pretty sweet. and this limited edition stuff is rad.

[snuffleupagus]

VTChrome- for starters, let me address the membrane question. We are moving all our shells (Freeride and Touring) to the Dermizax NX membrane as we believe this is the best performing membrane on the market. Additionally, all of our shells will include stretch. This results in a better fit and increased durability since stretch = durability.

As you can see in the chart below, the NX membrane has the best combination of waterproofness and breathability. Neoshell was not included in this test but, as you noted, they are pretty open that the waterproofness is not on the same level as these membranes. You get great breathability, but you sacrifice waterproofness.

Brand	Product	Waterproof Rating(mm/24hr)	Breathability Rating(g/m2/24hr)
Toray®	Dermizax®NX	20,000+	50,000+
Toray®	Dermizax®EV	20,000+	20,000
eVent	eVent	30,000	22,000
Gore-Tex®	PacLite®	28,000	15,000
Gore-Tex®	Performance Shell	28,000	17,000
Gore-Tex®	Pro-Shell 3-Layer	28,000	25,000
Marmot	MemBrain®	20,000	25,000
Marmot	PreCip®	15,000	12,000
Marmot	PreCip Plus®	25,000	15,000
Mountain Hardwear	Conduit	20,000	20,000

[Gray Lab]

If NX works as well as advertised and you maintain Trew's quality and durability these will be very nice. Don't mess up the design and keep the price reasonable. Most NX is way overpriced (Kjus etc).

Send me a prototype and I'll wear test the crap out of it and give you feedback more detailed and insightful than anything you've ever seen.

[Buster Highmen]

Buster, our intentions are sincere. There is no doubt that good info comes out of these threads. A couple of examples: 1)we have been debating the length of our bottoms and its apparent that 3/4 length is the winner. 2) zipper pocket on the mid-layer is also clearly important to folks. We want to hear from you and this is a great venue to do so.

Fair enough.

Second, are you asking if a natural product could be the core around which the merino is spun? Unfortunately, I cannot answer this. We did not invent NuYarn technology..rather we simply discovered it in our research. Nonetheless, I will mention this to them to see if a natural fiber could work as the core.

Yes. OK. Ibex had products based around a fabric called climawool that was awesome and it was built similarly to NuYarn. It only came in heavier weights but that is the best softshell I ever had.

In terms of SeaCell, you won't smell like anything! The fabric smells and appears no different than NuYarn. And it's anti-microbial properties keeps all odors away....

Merino already has this in spades over any other synthetic I've been around. What would be nice is if there could be some moth repellent inwoven.

[auvgeek]

As you can see in the chart below, the NX membrane has the best combination of waterproofness and breathability. Neoshell was not included in this test but, as you noted, they are pretty open that the waterproofness is not on the same level as these membranes. You get great breathability, but you sacrifice waterproofness.

Brand	Product	Waterproof Rating(mm/24hr)	Breathability Rating(g/m2/24hr)
Toray®	Dermizax®NX	20,000+	50,000+
Toray®	Dermizax®EV	20,000+	20,000
eVent	eVent	30,000	22,000
Gore-Tex®	PacLite®	28,000	15,000
Gore-Tex®	Performance Shell	28,000	17,000
Gore-Tex®	Pro-Shell 3-Layer	28,000	25,000
Marmot	MemBrain®	20,000	25,000
Marmot	PreCip®	15,000	12,000
Marmot	PreCip Plus®	25,000	15,000
Mountain Hardwear	Conduit	20,000	20,000

Source for that chart? My real-world experience says that eVent is not as waterproof as Gore Pro shell and all the marketing claims that it's more breathable, so I'm very curious about the source of these data.

I have some more thoughts re mid layers and Trew gear in general, but I won't have time until next week.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Part of the genius of the R1 hoody is the zipper. It is needed for venting and more fit options. The stretchy tuck in part and the thumb looks rule.

Reality is I often have to take a secondary shit/critical re-wipe(CRW)/or double down after I put my ski pants on. I'm appreciate if you'd address that with an appropriately designed union suit.

Also, softshell pants that fit like Carhartts with nut vents and zippered cargo pockets. All items in black. Thanks.

[Gray Lab]

Tripp thanks for the info. Dermizax NX does seem pretty promising and if you can incorporate it into pieces that have the kind of bomb proof construction that Trew is known for, you might hitting the sweet spot. Those touring bibs look pretty sweet (if you lose the Eurosteez multicolor and make em in talls).

NX is kind of a mystery membrane though. Because I'm a little OCD, I got stuck down the internet rabbit hole trying to figure it out while looking for new bibs but couldn't really find much good info (especially if you speak English). If you've seen the science, please share if you can. For example, exactly what is the technology it and how does it work? What is different in the technology or construction or material that sets it apart from other membranes and allows it to achieve such gaudy numbers. I've seen that it is a nonporous PU laminate based on the Dermizax EV, but what makes the NX so much more effective? PU has been around for years and was never known for its breathability. Also, how does the durability of the membrane compare to the others (Gore Pro, eVent, Dry Q Elite) and does it break down or lose effectiveness if dirt or sweat gets in membrane etc.?

Even more curious, if it’s so good, why aren’t more manufacturers using it? The brands I've seen use it (Bergans, Kjus, Ortovox, Goldwin, Killy, Peak Performance, Descente, MEC, Spyder, Obermeyer, Phenix) tend to be pricey foreign brands some of which trend a little more toward the fashion than the functional/technical side of things. There’s also a guy making hunting apparel with it (Kuiu). Here’s a link to his explanation (http://blog.kuiu.com/2013/08/21/wate....FqWrRl7Y.dpbs). Seems like a lot of manufacturers went the Neoshell route instead, but I can't figure out why they would if NX has even better breathability without sacrificing the waterproofness like Neoshell does.

[Gray Lab]

Any chance you could share sketches of the touring bib proto you can share like you did with the sketches of the baselayers on your blog? After closer inspection, it looks like a pretty good design to me. Not sure how tall/heavy you are, but they do look a way shorter on you than I'd like. Nice cut though. Not too tight, not too loose. Hope the fly doesn't come all the way up the bib. I like when it stops at the belt line (like on Trewth). Don't see a zip at the bottom of the leg either, which is probably OK as long as the leg opening goes down over the boot top without too much tug and pull. That color with my dayglo KR2 Pros and orange FKS could be rough though. Make 'em in a gray, beige or the solid dark blue that's on the knee in the picture and the problem is solved. Everything else looks like it's right along the lines of what I said above. Nice!

[snuffleupagus]

Source for that chart? My real-world experience says that eVent is not as waterproof as Gore Pro shell and all the marketing claims that it's more breathable, so I'm very curious about the source of these data.

I have some more thoughts re mid layers and Trew gear in general, but I won't have time until next week.

This was from a third party, but it was a third party via Toray (full disclosure). I do think this is pretty accurate, though these results can vary from test to test. I would agree that all the things I have heard regarding eVent is that it's not as waterproof, so that one result in the above test is intriguing.

very much looking forward to hearing your thoughts on TREW next week....

[snuffleupagus]

Part of the genius of the R1 hoody is the zipper. It is needed for venting and more fit options. The stretchy tuck in part and the thumb looks rule.

Reality is I often have to take a secondary shit/critical re-wipe(CRW)/or double down after I put my ski pants on. I'm appreciate if you'd address that with an appropriately designed union suit.

Also, softshell pants that fit like Carhartts with nut vents and zippered cargo pockets. All items in black. Thanks.

softshell pants are in the queue as well! noted on the nut vents and zippered cargo. out of curiosity, how would you use these pants? touring? resort? around town? all of the above?

[bean]

^ I'm going to offer a counterpoint to Foggy's demand for everything in black. I have little interest in black jackets and negative interest in black pants. Especially for softshells.

[snuffleupagus]

OK, gonna tackle this post and then work on your others....
*You'll see blog posts about the touring stuff in the coming weeks and months. we'll be revealing them in a format to how the base layers were released. we're really excited to share this with everyone.
1) noted on length. i assume you're talking about inseam length, correct? I had not heard that our pants ran short, but we'll do some comparisons to other brands. for reference, I'm 5'11" 165 w/ 33" waist and I rock mediums and length has not been an issue for me.
2) in our design, we try to find balance for the aesthetic and the fit. Over the course of the past 6 years, l would argue our color choices and overall aesthetic have matured. Definitely lots of options for anyone in this years choices, many of which i think would fit in well in Patagonia or Arc's collection. As for fit, our cuts run very similar to all ski/snowboard pieces from Patagonia, FlyLow and Arc's freeride line. We've really refined our cuts the past couple seasons as a result of having a really strong long term production partner. If you haven't tried on any of our stuff lately, I'd encourage you to do so and see if the fit is more up your alley.
3) We've never been uber weight conscious and won't be going forward. Utility, performance, durability and a creative aesthetic take precedence.
4) more on NX coming in future posts...
5) the fly is a sensitive area! we currently use one zipper car, and you're right it can be hard to locate up under the jacket... but noted on using two and avoiding little dangly things....
6) current suspenders on TREWth bib are combination of elastic and shell material. this solution works well and keeps it low profile. our goal is keep this as low profile as possible to avoid hot spots with packs on.
7) noted on scuff guards. current height seems to work well. maybe the touring pant guards could be higher since its more likely one would be wearing crampons with those pants...
8) noted on key clip. As durability in the touring pant, we're trying hard to find the proper balance. this needs to be a lighter weight pant, but also withstand the abuse of intense shredding. I think our fabric choices have achieved that and you'll notice reinforcement in certain areas.
9) current version of TREWth bibs do not have full length side zip. we went away from this feature a couple years go. our cuff openings are an industry standard and, again, comparable to most "snow category" products from Patagonia, etc.
10) seam tape dialed. We use the best in Beamis. And our features are in line with your thinking.
11) NuYarn is going to blow you away. It basically elevates wool to another level.
12) noted on extra length in the sleeves. i have some photos of a fitting session yesterday that i'll post soon. hard to keep up with all this action on this thread....
13) snug, long, and zipper. check. we'll have all of these.
14) there are no tags that i'm aware of. we will simply print on the neck interior all the info you need with a heat transfer.
15) gloves are on our radar. basically anything in NuYarn is going to be amazing.
16) we'll have three different weights to choose from. plenty of options depending on if you run warm or cold. see blog for details.
17) left chesty pocket on mid layer. this has been pretty much the consensus on this thread. this has been duly noted.
18) it's our goal to get this at the best price possible. I think you'll be pumped that you'll get a better product for basically the same price as regular merino.

[adrenalated]

^ I'm going to offer a counterpoint to Foggy's demand for everything in black. I have little interest in black jackets and negative interest in black pants. Especially for softshells.

Ditto. I prefer to not sweat my nuts off in black apparel on sunny days. Plus, you can buy black/dark gray apparel from basically every manufacturer out there.

But this is Trew, so I'm pretty confident there will be color options.

Also, I'm a huge fan of different regular and tall lengths. Extra length material sucks for normal sized people just like too short pieces suck for you tall bastards.

[snuffleupagus]

Fair enough.

Yes. OK. Ibex had products based around a fabric called climawool that was awesome and it was built similarly to NuYarn. It only came in heavier weights but that is the best softshell I ever had.

Merino already has this in spades over any other synthetic I've been around. What would be nice is if there could be some moth repellent inwoven.

Some more thoughts on NuYarn.....The Nylon core is composed of a super-fine filament Nylon that has high-strength and excellent abrasion. It’s also much, much finer than a natural fiber, and it brings incredible performance benefits without added weight. The Merino fibers are completely sheathed around the Nylon core, and the properties of the Merino are really what drive the comfort and performance of the fabric.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Light colored ski apparel just doesn't work for me. Oil, grease, dirt, beer is just unavoidable. Plus, many people that work outside have to wear black for there uniform. Plus, I'm the Johnny Cash of Skiing.

[Name Redacted]

For the record, I got a black Cosmic and a pair of black Trewth bibs. I would not have bought these in any other color (except maybe grey). Please keep offering lots of pretty color options, AND BLACK.

[snuffleupagus]

Tripp thanks for the info. Dermizax NX does seem pretty promising and if you can incorporate it into pieces that have the kind of bomb proof construction that Trew is known for, you might hitting the sweet spot. Those touring bibs look pretty sweet (if you lose the Eurosteez multicolor and make em in talls).

NX is kind of a mystery membrane though. Because I'm a little OCD, I got stuck down the internet rabbit hole trying to figure it out while looking for new bibs but couldn't really find much good info (especially if you speak English). If you've seen the science, please share if you can. For example, exactly what is the technology it and how does it work? What is different in the technology or construction or material that sets it apart from other membranes and allows it to achieve such gaudy numbers. I've seen that it is a nonporous PU laminate based on the Dermizax EV, but what makes the NX so much more effective? PU has been around for years and was never known for its breathability. Also, how does the durability of the membrane compare to the others (Gore Pro, eVent, Dry Q Elite) and does it break down or lose effectiveness if dirt or sweat gets in membrane etc.?

Even more curious, if it’s so good, why aren’t more manufacturers using it? The brands I've seen use it (Bergans, Kjus, Ortovox, Goldwin, Killy, Peak Performance, Descente, MEC, Spyder, Obermeyer, Phenix) tend to be pricey foreign brands some of which trend a little more toward the fashion than the functional/technical side of things. There’s also a guy making hunting apparel with it (Kuiu). Here’s a link to his explanation (http://blog.kuiu.com/2013/08/21/wate....FqWrRl7Y.dpbs). Seems like a lot of manufacturers went the Neoshell route instead, but I can't figure out why they would if NX has even better breathability without sacrificing the waterproofness like Neoshell does.

Great questions. The composition of NX membrane is the same as the EV membrane, it’s a nonporous PU. This type of membrane functions in a similar way to any PU or PU coated membranes (like PTFE). They work better as your water vapor output increases, the concentration of water vapor on the inside of your garment dissolves through the membrane to reach the lower levels of water vapor concentration on the outside of the garment. Toray set-out to increase these diffusion rates by improving the polymer structure of the membrane. By controlling the the linkage of the hydrophilic PU molecules, they’ve created a smooth, well-balanced structure that allows for a faster transmission of water vapor. See the following image:





The advantages for PU membranes compared to Gore Pro or eVent are in the durability (no pores to get clogged with dirt or oil), stretchability, and consistently high performance as a waterproof and windproof membrane (air-permeable membranes are obviously drafty, and even some porous membranes like eVent can be drafty compared to monolithic pu membranes). In the case of air-permeable membranes like Neo Shell, they are incredibly breathable, much more so than pu membranes, you can literally breath through it. Water vapor is transmitted even in states of relatively low activity. However the payoff is a significant decrease in waterproofness and warmth. If you’re not being aerobic, your body’s vapor and heat can pass freely through the membrane and it can actually be pretty chilly. If you’re constantly working hard and not encountering terrible weather, a Neo shell hard shell (or even a soft-shell) is sufficient. However, as a NW brand, we deal with crazy amounts of precip and rain, so a shell layer is mostly about protection from the elements. The high-end moisture transmission of the NX membrane is sufficient for many levels of activity, but if you’re really working hard nothing beats well-placed vents.

Why aren't more brands using it? The primary reason is that GoreTex is a massive marketing machine and most major brands can't move away from the name. Gore spends an incredible amount of time and money marketing to the end-consumer so that when Average Joe walks into REI, they defer to the Gore brand. It's powerful and in most stores Gore simply sells itself, despite not being the best product. And many store employees are not armed with knowledge to make the case that another technology is better. So, I would argue the primary reason major brands don't use NX or other superior technologies is a marketing issue. We're going to try extra hard to educate our customer base that superior technologies exist.

EDIT: One other thought on why folks are not using NX and why many have adopted NeoShell. Beginning about five years ago the big focus became breathability since many hard shells were not that breathable. "Breathability" became the key objective and its trendy. NeoShell achieved great levels of breathability and that sells because that's what hot...but they sacrificed waterproofness to get there. In our eyes, it's about finding the best combination of the waterproofness and breathability. And right now NX is the leader.

[snuffleupagus]

For the record, I got a black Cosmic and a pair of black Trewth bibs. I would not have bought these in any other color (except maybe grey). Please keep offering lots of pretty color options, AND BLACK.

we'll always offer black, particularly in pants and almost always in jackets.

[Gray Lab]

Auvgeek, the chart you asked about looks like it is from that Kuiu site at the link I posted above. I've usually seen a slightly lower 40,000+ as the breathability number from the manufacturer (Toray). Some of the manufacturers seem to use 50,000. Not sure it matters much because those numbers are all a little wishy washy anyway.