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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    I personally like a snug fit on my baselayers, helps move moisture away from my body better.

    As everyone else has said, R1 hoody is basically perfection for a warm, hooded midlayer. Zippered chest pocket, large enough to hold a phone or P&S camera is a must. No handwarmer pockets, please. R1 hoody is one of the few pieces actually long enough to not come untucked. R1 pullover sucks, not long enough. The Black Diamond Coefficient pullover is nearly as good as the R1 hoody (for a non hooded piece) but the collar is a little too high. Basically you should make the R1 hoody, but in hooded and non hooded versions.


    I also frequently use a light, highly breathable, wind resistant midlayer. The Rab Boreas Hoody is my current choice, but it could be just a touch longer and I wouldn't mind a non hooded version as well.

    For baselayers, the Icebreaker 3/4 length bottoms are perfect in length. I use the 200 weight most of the season (tops and bottoms), until spring. I'd love to have a super wicking, lightweight, 3/4 length bottom for spring. Think Patagonia Cap 1 weight, Cap 2 at the most. AFAIK nobody makes anything like this now.
    I too prefer a little more snug fit on the base layers. We are in development of an uber light windshirt (think Patagonia Houdini) that is a great midlayer and general all the time piece. Again, will get some photos up here shortly.

    The Rab piece looks righteous. The cut is a bit alpine, hence the length issues you mention. how warm is that fabric?

  2. #52
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    And it'd be nice if the bib straps had some sort of low profile buckles.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by snuffleupagus View Post
    I too prefer a little more snug fit on the base layers. We are in development of an uber light windshirt (think Patagonia Houdini) that is a great midlayer and general all the time piece. Again, will get some photos up here shortly.

    The Rab piece looks righteous. The cut is a bit alpine, hence the length issues you mention. how warm is that fabric?
    It's not at all warm. Which is the point. 95% of my touring days (any day warmer than single digits), I'm wearing that. Baselayer provides the little bit of warmth I need while moving, Rab piece cuts the wind and light precip and breathes well, shell in the pack for the descent, puffy in the pack for stops.
    Patagonia Houdini is decent but I think the Rab piece breathes better.

    Edit - what shredgnar said about bib buckles. On most bibs (haven't tried yours) the buckle ends up sitting right on or near my shoulders, making it impossible to comfortably wear a pack. Place them so that they're out of the way of pack shoulder straps. Also, cross-through venting (vents on both sides of the leg) are crucial on pants. I can't believe that Flylow and Strafe are the only ones that have figured this shit out.
    Edit again - actually looking at your bib, looks like you've got the straps clear of pack interference. Well done. Add vents to the other side of the leg and I'll buy a pair as soon as my Strafes die.
    Last edited by adrenalated; 04-02-2015 at 10:06 AM.

  4. #54
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    I call it the "Third Vent" that zipper in the crotch area (yeah, the fly). Maybe add a way to prop it open for maximum airflow while skinning on hot days. And I'm only half kidding.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredgnar View Post
    And it'd be nice if the bib straps had some sort of low profile buckles.
    As of F14 bibs no longer have buckles. We moved to a low profile velcro system. WAY more comfortable when wearing a pack.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    It's not at all warm. Which is the point. 95% of my touring days (any day warmer than single digits), I'm wearing that. Baselayer provides the little bit of warmth I need while moving, Rab piece cuts the wind and light precip and breathes well, shell in the pack for the descent, puffy in the pack for stops.
    Patagonia Houdini is decent but I think the Rab piece breathes better.

    Edit - what shredgnar said about bib buckles. On most bibs (haven't tried yours) the buckle ends up sitting right on or near my shoulders, making it impossible to comfortably wear a pack. Place them so that they're out of the way of pack shoulder straps. Also, cross-through venting (vents on both sides of the leg) are crucial on pants. I can't believe that Flylow and Strafe are the only ones that have figured this shit out.
    Edit again - actually looking at your bib, looks like you've got the straps clear of pack interference. Well done. Add vents to the other side of the leg and I'll buy a pair as soon as my Strafes die.
    roger on the Rab piece. i'll make sure to check that out in person or order one for research.

    as for cross venting, you're right, especially for a pant that is used for touring. not sure if you saw, but we're debuting a touring kit this upcoming fall. lightweight, stretch, waterproof/breathable hardshell with waterproofing equal to Gore Pro but 2.5x more breathable than Gore Pro. And, you'll be happy about this, it has massive cross venting. it's an awesome garment and sounds like it will be right up your alley.
    Here is a photo of a prototype up on hood a few weeks ago.

    Last edited by snuffleupagus; 04-02-2015 at 11:16 AM.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredgnar View Post
    I call it the "Third Vent" that zipper in the crotch area (yeah, the fly). Maybe add a way to prop it open for maximum airflow while skinning on hot days. And I'm only half kidding.
    some days you just need to dump as much heat as possible!

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by snuffleupagus View Post
    roger on the Rab piece. i'll make sure to check that out in person or order one for research.

    as for cross venting, you're right, especially for a pant that is used for touring. not sure if you saw, but we're debuting a touring kit this upcoming fall. lightweight, stretch, waterproof/breathable hardshell with waterproofing equal to Gore Pro but 2.5x more breathable than Gore Pro. And, you'll be happy about this, it has massive cross venting. it's an awesome garment and sounds like it will be right up your alley.
    Here is a photo of a prototype up on hood a few weeks ago.
    Picture no worky, but glad to hear it, and look forward to checking it out.
    I'm assuming the first one is a pant (which is good and a needed piece in the line) but I love having cross flow vents in a bib too. Great for midwinter touring, sidecountry resort, etc.

  9. #59
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    Merino r00ls except for durability and I find it superior to synthetics in the pNW for moisture wicking.

    Some brands stuff falls apart.

    Moths can be a problem.

    So here's an idea: work cedar and linen into the weave.

    Linen is tough stuff and a natural fiber, cedar repels the moths. Might even offer a cedar soap for maintenance.

    And if you fuckers implement these idea, you owe me.

    Ibex makes some good stuff, but I don't think they've figured out the right construction to optimize merinos benefits. No one has made a decent soft-shell with a more moisture resistant yoke/upper from gtx or other nylon coated fabrics with lower torso out of merino. I think there's a win in there. Similarly for pants where the more water resistant fabric goes on the butt and thighs.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredgnar View Post
    I call it the "Third Vent" that zipper in the crotch area (yeah, the fly). Maybe add a way to prop it open for maximum airflow while skinning on hot days. And I'm only half kidding.
    You mean you don't just hang your dick out? WTF???
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Merino r00ls except for durability and I find it superior to synthetics in the pNW for moisture wicking.

    Some brands stuff falls apart.

    Moths can be a problem.

    So here's an idea: work cedar and linen into the weave.

    Linen is tough stuff and a natural fiber, cedar repels the moths. Might even offer a cedar soap for maintenance.

    And if you fuckers implement these idea, you owe me.

    Ibex makes some good stuff, but I don't think they've figured out the right construction to optimize merinos benefits. No one has made a decent soft-shell with a more moisture resistant yoke/upper from gtx or other nylon coated fabrics with lower torso out of merino. I think there's a win in there. Similarly for pants where the more water resistant fabric goes on the butt and thighs.
    You nailed the issue with merino-- durability. And this is why we're launching with NuYarn. This merino technology blows traditional merino out of the water. The difference is deep in the spinning technique of the yarn. It results in zero "twists" and, in turn, a superior fabric. We demonstrate the durability and discuss why NuYarn is going to be a game changer in the merino category on one of our blogs: http://www.trewgear.com/blog/?p=1804

    Here's a quick demonstration by my friend, biz partner, and our product line manager Chris....


    EDIT: we are also working on a NuYarn fabric infused with SeaCell, a seaweed based fiber that has PERMANENT natural anti-microbial characteristics. lots of cool stuff in our pipeline.
    Last edited by snuffleupagus; 04-02-2015 at 11:20 AM.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    It's not at all warm. Which is the point. 95% of my touring days (any day warmer than single digits), I'm wearing that. Baselayer provides the little bit of warmth I need while moving, Rab piece cuts the wind and light precip and breathes well, shell in the pack for the descent, puffy in the pack for stops.
    Patagonia Houdini is decent but I think the Rab piece breathes better.

    Edit - what shredgnar said about bib buckles. On most bibs (haven't tried yours) the buckle ends up sitting right on or near my shoulders, making it impossible to comfortably wear a pack. Place them so that they're out of the way of pack shoulder straps. Also, cross-through venting (vents on both sides of the leg) are crucial on pants. I can't believe that Flylow and Strafe are the only ones that have figured this shit out.
    Edit again - actually looking at your bib, looks like you've got the straps clear of pack interference. Well done. Add vents to the other side of the leg and I'll buy a pair as soon as my Strafes die.
    Here's the photo of the touring pant:

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by LC View Post
    XL should fit tall skiers, not fat people who ski. Same goes for outerwear.
    What about fat + tall guys? I have the same issue with length on every top I get in that it's too short, or too baggy in XL, or both. I'm all torso, so length is key for functionality in base layers for me.

    3/4 length for sure on pants. Even when I'm wearing them for non-ski activities, I'll still be wearing long socks, and on-hill comfort is way better than full length or even 7/8 IMO

    I don't really love zippers on my middle layers. Adds a lot of bulk, and I hardly ever use them. I'd rather have a smooth, seamless fabric underneath any day.

    How about a one-piece under layer? 3/4 length in the legs with no hood, zipper in the back like a wetsuit. It may suck, I'm just spitballing here, but it sounds perfect for what I want.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by snuffleupagus View Post
    the interchangeable suspender length could be a fantastic solution for the tall and thin crowd.
    i'm going to disagree (sorry for being a pain in the ass); long shoulder straps only help long torsos, not longer inseams

    you need to be able to raise your knee without the fabric restricting your movement at the hips
    a large low crotch is restrictive to squatting, bending etc because the hip movement gets caught up
    and at the same time
    you don't want highwaters because you look like an idiot and you need the overlap with boots to keep snow out and stay dry

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    I also frequently use a light, highly breathable, wind resistant midlayer. The Rab Boreas Hoody is my current choice, but it could be just a touch longer and I wouldn't mind a non hooded version as well.

    For baselayers, the Icebreaker 3/4 length bottoms are perfect in length. I use the 200 weight most of the season (tops and bottoms), until spring. I'd love to have a super wicking, lightweight, 3/4 length bottom for spring. Think Patagonia Cap 1 weight, Cap 2 at the most. AFAIK nobody makes anything like this now.
    Seconded on these two items in particular. I suggest looking at the Patagonia Houdini, something long and slim fit for cutting bulk under other layers and staying tucked in would be ideal. The thing weighs 4oz and packs to nothing but provides a ridiculous amount of breathable wind protection. It's perfect for spring peak skiing, just needs a better fit.

    I'd consider punching babies for a Cap1-weight 3/4-length bottom layer.
    "High risers are for people with fused ankles, jongs and dudes who are too fat to see their dick or touch their toes.
    Prove me wrong."
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  16. #66
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    Also bring back that ultralight softshell pullover you had a few years back. Maybe add some way to close the front pocket (perfectly sized for split skins). Mine is looking pretty ratty, blood stains don't pull tail....
    Life is simple. Go Explore.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by balefulstare View Post
    3/4 length merino bottoms please. They seem to be hard come by, at least around here...
    NOT Merino, but a very good product currently on sale:
    http://www.burton.com/default/midwei...15-102621.html

  18. #68
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    Is NuYarn still a machine washable merino product? Also, why would you need the anti-microbial (SeaCell) in a Merino product? Is it due to the nylon core for the fiber?

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by acinpdx View Post
    i'm going to disagree (sorry for being a pain in the ass); long shoulder straps only help long torsos, not longer inseams

    you need to be able to raise your knee without the fabric restricting your movement at the hips
    a large low crotch is restrictive to squatting, bending etc because the hip movement gets caught up
    and at the same time
    you don't want highwaters because you look like an idiot and you need the overlap with boots to keep snow out and stay dry
    well, i think we're both right. to some extend, i think longer suspenders would help, but at some point you are correct, the crotch gets too low and the pant doesn't properly function. this solution might help on the margins and may help someone with a long torso. nonetheless, your point is well taken.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by That was Pontus View Post
    Also bring back that ultralight softshell pullover you had a few years back. Maybe add some way to close the front pocket (perfectly sized for split skins). Mine is looking pretty ratty, blood stains don't pull tail....
    that garment was the bomb! good to know there is demand. perhaps we'll make another limited edition run of those in the future....

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWcement View Post
    Is NuYarn still a machine washable merino product? Also, why would you need the anti-microbial (SeaCell) in a Merino product? Is it due to the nylon core for the fiber?
    yes, NuYarn is machine washable. we'll recommend cold water and air dry. The SeaCell is not currently in the NuYarn that we'll be debuting this fall. we're experimenting with it. It's not NEEDED, but would basically make the garment resist foul odors for the life of the product and that would be a real nice bonus if you're roaming in your van or on backcountry mission without the ability to wash anything.

    The nylon core of NuYarn is what allows the zero twist and in turn the fabric to perform the way it does.

  22. #72
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    Tripp

    Thanks for taking the time to talk about this stuff. Smart move to get input from TGR. Been lurking long enough to know that this forum can make or break a product. Mag approval is usually hard won and worth the effort. I rode the lift last week with the owner of a fledgling indy ski company and asked him if he had solicited input here and his response was basically "fuck that noise."

    I just sent an email to Trew yesterday asking about the new touring bib, so your timing is uncanny. **BLOG ALERT**

    1) Bibs/pants that are too short (looking at you Patagonia) are no beuno. I have 10ish year old Arcteryx Theta SV long/tall bibs and I like the fit but it's time to reload. Was looking at the Trewth but heard it ran short. I don't want to feel my pants tugging on my boots--at all. A few extra inches allows for a little "slinky" action when needed(especially for fabrics that don't stretch). Too long will be OK as long as the cut isn't too roomy. Err on the side of longer, not shorter, or offer tall or long sizes.

    2) Trew has generally run too steezy for me. Too baggy, jibby cuts, multicolor patterns that make you look like a Jr. High kid or Tanner Hall. I can do without giant leg openings that just mean more material flapping in the wind. Not saying the techy fit is good either, but there's a good middle of the road. Not too steezy, not too techy. And you should always have at least some decent middle of the road grey, beige, black options. This year's assortment of florescent harvest oranges on the Trewth was like a plate of leftovers from Thanksgiving dinner.

    3) Don't let the weight weenies ruin good design. Weight savings is usually at the expense of desireable functionality. I kinda like the convenience of pockets, belt loops for the option to wear a belt, and only a savage wouldn't want a powder skirt and internal boot gaiters. If you need to save weight, do it in a piece designed only for long tours. For a 1 or 2 day tour, I'll carry the few extra ounces, thanks.

    4) Maybe you can't say (but can you hint?) at what the material is in the new touring bib. Since you use the Dermizax EV for the Trewth, I'm wondering if you have moved up to the Dermizax NX for these new bibs. Hard as hell to find any info on this fabric unless you speak German. But there's some outlandish breathability claims that have been made about this fabric. I dropped a comment in Blister's Outerwear 101/201 article, but no one responded. Maybe you have some info. I hope you didn't go to Neoshell for this bib because I've always been scared off by Polartec's own advice that the waterproofing on Neoshell goes down to 5,000 after 20 washes. NX is supposed to have good stretch which would be nice.

    5) A 2 way zipper on the fly is essential for bibs because the top zipper is inside the jacket and to take a leak with the jacket on, you need to open from the bottom up. On my SV's, I had to take the pull loop off the top zipper and put it on the bottom because the bottom zip was too hard to grab with gloves on. Problem is that leaves a dinky little zipper pull loop pud sticking out at the bottom of my fly. Not a good look. Gives the ladies a bad impression. Maybe you can come up with a more artful solution.

    6) I’d skip making the bib detachable, but I don't think the bib part needs to be the same material as the rest of the pants. Lighter, stretchier breathable softshell material (like a Polartec power stretch?) would probably be better. Looks like you did that on the new bibs that are coming out.

    7) The SV shoulder straps are narrow webbing, probably not even an inch wide. I think a beefier strap would be much better. I like the buckle system on those, but I can see velcro being a good solution (as long as you don't cheap out on it). Also the SV straps never stay put on my shoulders, so I have to cross them in the front to create a better angle across the shoulders, which was not the design.

    8) I beat the hell out of my scuff guards. The stuff you use sounds pretty rugged, but the guards on the Trewth look pretty short to me (maybe 6 or 8"?). I would make this taller to protect higher up.

    9) A small key clip or loop somewhere inside a secure pocket. Redundant security when it comes to the keys.

    10) Trew has a rep for indestructible outwear. Skiing is in tight trees, even really durable stuff can be tested. I hope new bibs are still up to this standard and don't give up too much durability (if any) for breathability.

    11) What kind of savages are running around in their baselayer pants with their boots still on so much that they need a full zip to get their pants on and off? Full side zip probably not necessary but a bottom side zip that comes up 12" or 18" is key for getting the bottom of the leg opening down over the boots more easily (see #2 above—no giant leg openings).

    Thoughts on jackets:

    1) Make sure the seam sealing is state of the art. Don't fuck up an otherwise great jacket with shitty seams (same for pants).

    2) Must have at least one chest pocket (napoleon pocket), but two is better. I keep my iPhone in my left front chest pocket and it sometimes freezes, so I wouldn't hate seeing a thin lining that might help keep it warmer even if it adds a little weight. Leave the right front pocket unlined, because no one designs for left-handed people. A jacket also needs a small pocket somewhere on the left arm. Some people call these pass pockets, but they're great for little stuff you need to access quickly. Should also have 2 handwarmer pockets, above the belt line for a pack. There should be two internal pockets, maybe mesh, and at least one should probably be big enough for skins.

    3) If the hood won't comfortably fit over a helmet and allow for the full range of head motion when in use, don't even bother. Zip off/stowable hoods are only for sociopaths.

    4) When it's cold, I like to just zip up my collar and pull it up over my face instead of using a facemask. Seems like the designs with a separate collar allow for this without use of the hood and so are better than collars that are integrated into the hood, but either way there has to be a nice patch of soft material on the inside for my chin. I think your new merino might be great for this, but whatever you use, don't skrimp on it and give me a dinky little patch. Also, the collar has to be roomy enough to fit my giant chin in there when fully zipped.

    5) We bib folk don't want a long jacket. Just past hips with a cinch strap would be perfect.

    Baselayer thoughts:

    1) Anyone who wears anything other than merino as a baselayer is a complete savage. But I do like the idea that you are addressing the biggest weakness of merino.

    2) I've worn Smartwool, Ibex and Icebreaker in different thicknesses and styles. I feel like Icebreaker is well made but it tends to shrink up both in sleeve length and torso length.

    3) For those of us with long arms, short arms on baselayers (I'm looking at you Patagonia) can ruin your day. Thumb loops help, but just make the sleeves long to begin with. An extra inch or two isn’t going to bother anyone.

    4) Baselayers should be snug. Don't know what those savages above are thinking with loose baselayers. They don't have to be Under Armor compression gear tight, but they should be snug, at least in the arms. I don't want my sleeves flapping around or sliding down when I raise my arms.

    5) Like others said, longer especially in the back to keep it tucked in.

    6) I like to have a tall zip neck on most of my baselayers. Icebreaker actually does a better job at this than Smartwool or Ibex. I use this layer to keep the air off my neck when it's cold. Midlayers are generally too bulky for this function and it's probably too hard to make them in a way that they will be snug on a wide range of neck sizes anyway. Err on the size of making the neck too tall. The short neck people can zip less than all the way up it it's too long. Zip should be deep.

    7) NO FRIGGIN TAGS IN BASELAYERS. If there's some labeling law or something that forces your hand, either stamp the label on, or at least put the tag where it's out of the way. Relocating the tags from the base of the neck to the left side seam doesn't work either. I don't need a giant tag sticking me in the side any more than I do in my neck. Put the freaking tag on the OUTSIDE of the hemline if you absolutely have to have a tag on there. And make it so I can rip the tags off without tearing seams.

    8) I like a nice thin merino liner glove to put below my dexterous as fuck gloves on cold days. Wouldn't mind seeing some in your new merino. Make sure to have fingertips with that stuff that lets me use my iPhone without taking them off.

    9) Make 3 different weights of baselayer, or 2 at a minimum with the same styles in each.

    10) No pockets in baselayers. Midlayers need a left side chest pocket though. I often have to put my iPhone in my midlayer if it freezes up in the outer layer and it sucks when the midlayer doesn't have a left chesty. A very heavy weight baselayer that can be worn almost like a midlayer could maybe have a chest pocket for this reason.

    11) I don't think merino works as a midlayer unless you're doing something like what Smartwool and Ortovox are doing and making some sort of baffle construction piece with merino fill. Otherwise it's just a thicker baselayer to me (see #9 above).

    12) Non-wear related failures in merino pieces seem to come at high stress areas like the bottom of a zipper placket. Beef up the construction there.

    13) Price these right (or at least do a TGR deal). The cost of merino is absurd.

    /gasbag tech talk blog

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    Zippered chest pocket is great for a phone, as body heat keeps it warm enough to function even at low temps.
    Zippers are great, keep expensive things in place! (Phones, wallets, your stash etc.) seems the more valuable an item is, the more prone it is to finding its way out of a pocket...but zippers that catch on trim pieces of fabric and jam drive me crazy.
    "Dad, I can huck that"

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by snuffleupagus View Post
    not sure if you saw, but we're debuting a touring kit this upcoming fall.
    Actually, I've been having a hard time finding any info on the 15/16 Trew lineup. Any links to photos of the new gear (the non-TBD protoype stuff that's being discussed here?)

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by snuffleupagus View Post
    You nailed the issue with merino-- durability. And this is why we're launching with NuYarn. This merino technology blows traditional merino out of the water. The difference is deep in the spinning technique of the yarn. It results in zero "twists" and, in turn, a superior fabric. We demonstrate the durability and discuss why NuYarn is going to be a game changer in the merino category on one of our blogs: http://www.trewgear.com/blog/?p=1804
    I did read and watch before posting, so I was aware of NuYarn.
    Is this really about 'input' or is it marketing?

    Is a natural product like hemp or flax based linen not acceptable for some reason?
    EDIT: we are also working on a NuYarn fabric infused with SeaCell, a seaweed based fiber that has PERMANENT natural anti-microbial characteristics. lots of cool stuff in our pipeline.
    Will I smell like fish? I'd rather smell like cedar.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

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