The TREWth about Product Development/The Birth of our Base Layers

[snuffleupagus]

just my opinion, but i would hesitate putting the phone in an unsecured handwarmer pocket, and also like the security for the wallet. One of my favorite multi-use pieces right now is the Patagucci Kramer vest, which has zippered handwarmers and an open chest pocket, like on your Pocket T.

can you provide a link for the Kramer Vest? i can't find that item and want to check it out.

[Horu]

I recently purchased a vaporizer top during your half off sale (size XL, me 6' 210#. Wide shoulders and short (30") inseam.) I initially got a L, but swapped for the XL as it's more of a midweight layer and the baselayer snugness of the L was a little much. Initially I was a little weirded out with the super long fit- the back of the garment covers my butt. Then, I realized that if I were wearing it while on a chairlift this would provide an additional layer of light fleece between my ass and the seat, which is a good thing. The hood is way too baggy to function under a helmet, but is that what you were going for?
Features I really like for tops:
Thumb holes at the ends of the sleeves. I don't always use them, but they make me super happy when I do.
Deep chest zip. Ventilation is good.
Long cut on the backside (like the current vaporizer). Think of it as plumber butt prevention.
On the midweight top, zippered pockets are nice- maybe consider a zippered security pocket inside one or both handwarmer pockets? Baselayers don't need pockets, they mess with wicking/breathing.

I'll echo the 3/4-7/8 length on bottoms. It is nice.
Don't forget to put in a fly.
Gusset that crotch, dammit.

[Tye 1on]

can you provide a link for the Kramer Vest? i can't find that item and want to check it out.

whoops, Karstens. link Looks like they added a snap to the chest pocket. Guess that's why mine was $24 at the Dillon 2nds store...

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Zippered chest pocket is great for a phone, as body heat keeps it warm enough to function even at low temps.

[snuffleupagus]

I recently purchased a vaporizer top during your half off sale (size XL, me 6' 210#. Wide shoulders and short (30") inseam.) I initially got a L, but swapped for the XL as it's more of a midweight layer and the baselayer snugness of the L was a little much. Initially I was a little weirded out with the super long fit- the back of the garment covers my butt. Then, I realized that if I were wearing it while on a chairlift this would provide an additional layer of light fleece between my ass and the seat, which is a good thing. The hood is way too baggy to function under a helmet, but is that what you were going for?
Features I really like for tops:
Thumb holes at the ends of the sleeves. I don't always use them, but they make me super happy when I do.
Deep chest zip. Ventilation is good.
Long cut on the backside (like the current vaporizer). Think of it as plumber butt prevention.
On the midweight top, zippered pockets are nice- maybe consider a zippered security pocket inside one or both handwarmer pockets? Baselayers don't need pockets, they mess with wicking/breathing.

I'll echo the 3/4-7/8 length on bottoms. It is nice.
Don't forget to put in a fly.
Gusset that crotch, dammit.

thanks for supporting us! the hood was not specifically designed to work under a helmet. it's more of a "throw it up while skinning" type thing. i have seen some folks rock it under a helmet. personally, i'm not a fan of hoods on mid layers so i rock the no-hood version. the length is nice for the reasons you mention, plus it won't come untucked! solid consensus for zipper pocket on mid-layer. we'll take that feedback and run with it. thanks!

[snuffleupagus]

whoops, Karstens. link Looks like they added a snap to the chest pocket. Guess that's why mine was $24 at the Dillon 2nds store...

CLASSIC vest! some times the simple straightforward no-frills stuff is the best.

[kootenayskier]

The Patagonia merino 2 zip neck top and the Ice breaker 200 weight 3/4 length bottoms are the combination that, after endless experimenting, I've found work best. If you can achieve the same functionality in garments that don't fall apart after 100 days or so of use, then you'll get my attention.

[nickwm21]

Some things I like and echoing things already mentioned:

- a midweight vest is one my most used articles of clothing.
- v neck on shirts are nice for us that have man shoulders
- 3/4 pant is key for skiing
- zippered chest and hand pockets on anything thick enough to warrant it.
- no hood on base or mid layers
- thumb holes on anything long sleeve that will be worn under something else.
- onsies are amazing. They are even more amazing if you don't have to get naked to take a shit.
- base layers do not need to be skin tight.
- tops need to be long enough to tuck.
- locking zippers!

[TexasGortex]

Another tall-ish guy here. No dice on your bibs for me. 6'4" 180lbs. Too short for comfort in the torso, even adjusted all the way out. It's not comfortable standing and bending induces a wedgie or worse. Just need some longer suspenders and they would work great. Would be an easy tweak for future models. Make the suspenders longer or removable; I'd be willing to order a longer set if that's what it took.

As for the subject at hand.... 3/4 length bottoms. I have no intention of buying full length again.

[snuffleupagus]

The Patagonia merino 2 zip neck top and the Ice breaker 200 weight 3/4 length bottoms are the combination that, after endless experimenting, I've found work best. If you can achieve the same functionality in garments that don't fall apart after 100 days or so of use, then you'll get my attention.

right on! this does seem likely a perfect combination. my current program is very similar. I feel confident we'll be putting out a product that you'll like. NuYarn has been tested to be significantly more durable than traditional merino. It's 47% stronger, 35% stretchier, and the seams are 120% tougher when independently tested in comparison to traditional merino. I spent a week at the Valkyr Hut in the middle of march testing product and this base layer program is the real deal. Based on our testing and research, a NuYarn product will hold up much better after your 100 day season.

[snuffleupagus]

Some things I like and echoing things already mentioned:

- a midweight vest is one my most used articles of clothing.
- v neck on shirts are nice for us that have man shoulders
- 3/4 pant is key for skiing
- zippered chest and hand pockets on anything thick enough to warrant it.
- no hood on base or mid layers
- thumb holes on anything long sleeve that will be worn under something else.
- onsies are amazing. They are even more amazing if you don't have to get naked to take a shit.
- base layers do not need to be skin tight.
- tops need to be long enough to tuck.
- locking zippers!

great feedback. what kind of vest do you rock? insulated vest?

[snuffleupagus]

Another tall-ish guy here. No dice on your bibs for me. 6'4" 180lbs. Too short for comfort in the torso, even adjusted all the way out. It's not comfortable standing and bending induces a wedgie or worse. Just need some longer suspenders and they would work great. Would be an easy tweak for future models. Make the suspenders longer or removable; I'd be willing to order a longer set if that's what it took.

As for the subject at hand.... 3/4 length bottoms. I have no intention of buying full length again.

someone emailed us this winter with the concept of removable suspender straps so that you could purchase longer versions. we really like this idea. likely not going to get incorporated for F15, but this is on our radar. if i've learned one thing in the past 6 years its that making gear to fit everyone is REALLY hard. But we wont give up in trying to find solutions. i think the interchangeable suspender length could be a fantastic solution for the tall and thin crowd.

[RockinB]

Zippered chest pocket is great for a phone, as body heat keeps it warm enough to function even at low temps.

This. This is where I keep our total station batteries during the colder months when working outside. Nothing worse than running out of juice a couple miles from the truck.

[shroom]

Zippered chest pocket is great for a phone, as body heat keeps it warm enough to function even at low temps.

yup. reason #2 the R1 is on point

[LC]

What features, fit, or style would you like to see in a high-performing base layer product?

XL should fit tall skiers, not fat people who ski. Same goes for outerwear.

[Cabinfever]

Echo the 3/4 length pant and long tail, thumb loop and medium tight top crowd.

Love love love my 2014 Eagle pants. 45 days of heavy use and wearing like new. Cold, warm, dry, wet it's the one I reach for. So comfortable they don't even feel like ski pants. Picked up a pair for the Mrs and now she's on the Trew train as well.

Customer service stellar. The pants I'm in now are replacements for a pair from 2012 that had issues with some of the seams. Dealing w Trew was a pleasure. Called them in the spring. They offered a number of options to remedy including a new pair to be shipped in the fall when the 2014 line came out. Pants showed up on time as promised with a killer note of apology from Trew. Customer for life.


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[TexasGortex]

someone emailed us this winter with the concept of removable suspender straps so that you could purchase longer versions. we really like this idea. likely not going to get incorporated for F15, but this is on our radar. if i've learned one thing in the past 6 years its that making gear to fit everyone is REALLY hard. But we wont give up in trying to find solutions. i think the interchangeable suspender length could be a fantastic solution for the tall and thin crowd.

That was me! Figured it couldn't hurt to throw it out there again. I liked the idea because you guys wouldn't have to change the fit and potentially lose existing customers, just add potential new ones.

[That was Pontus]

hearing you loud and clear on the 3/4 length. right now our plan is to make them 7/8 length, so that they are are mid-calf. This eliminates the bunched fabric above the boot, yet also gives the bottoms some versatility to be worn for different activities. The bottoms would be long enough with a taller sock for other activities such as hunting, tailgating, ice fishing or wherever else you'll need long johns! how does that resonate with you guys? we still have time to change the length prior to production....

Shoot for the middle, 13/16 please.

someone emailed us this winter with the concept of removable suspender straps so that you could purchase longer versions. we really like this idea. likely not going to get incorporated for F15, but this is on our radar. if i've learned one thing in the past 6 years its that making gear to fit everyone is REALLY hard. But we wont give up in trying to find solutions. i think the interchangeable suspender length could be a fantastic solution for the tall and thin crowd.

Don't know if you're R&D guys will get to look at them, but I recently warranteed my 1st gen Trewth bibs (easy and awesome warranty process btw, don't go changing) and they had a cobbled together removable suspender system as I found I was burning through the elastic well before the end of a season and needed a way to quickly replace it. Probably a horrible interpretation actually. Don't go looking at them. You're better than that.

[Name Redacted]

I got the Trewth Bibs this season and liked them so much, I got a Cosmic jacket too. Bomber, functional designs without all the fluff. Never been a bib guy until now. Only thing I would change is the zippers are still a little stiff even after 1/2 a season of use and could go both ways on the vents. ZIPPERS INSTEAD OF VELCRO on pockets and add a back pocket. Maybe a larger pocket to fit a beacon. Larger zipper on the the fly. The straps have been fine for me, but if they stretch out much more, I'll be bummed.

As far as base layer, I already look too much like a Trew whore, so going full base layer would be really weird. But the qualities that I like in my base layers are slightly baggy fit, and longer length. I'm tall, and have long arms. The main thing that I like about thumb holes, is that it usually ensures that the arms will be long enough for me. Burton midweight crew worked very well for me this season. If I needed more warmth, I pulled on the R1 over it.

Things I like about the R1, since many have mentioned it. Long zipper goes low for venting. Long shirt-tail tucks all the way. Maybe go tuxedo tail style so it's not as long in the front so you don't have to dig through as many layers when you go to take a leak.

[adrenalated]

I personally like a snug fit on my baselayers, helps move moisture away from my body better.

As everyone else has said, R1 hoody is basically perfection for a warm, hooded midlayer. Zippered chest pocket, large enough to hold a phone or P&S camera is a must. No handwarmer pockets, please. R1 hoody is one of the few pieces actually long enough to not come untucked. R1 pullover sucks, not long enough. The Black Diamond Coefficient pullover is nearly as good as the R1 hoody (for a non hooded piece) but the collar is a little too high. Basically you should make the R1 hoody, but in hooded and non hooded versions.

I also frequently use a light, highly breathable, wind resistant midlayer. The Rab Boreas Hoody is my current choice, but it could be just a touch longer and I wouldn't mind a non hooded version as well.

For baselayers, the Icebreaker 3/4 length bottoms are perfect in length. I use the 200 weight most of the season (tops and bottoms), until spring. I'd love to have a super wicking, lightweight, 3/4 length bottom for spring. Think Patagonia Cap 1 weight, Cap 2 at the most. AFAIK nobody makes anything like this now.

[PNWbrit]

Make them red.

[snuffleupagus]

Echo the 3/4 length pant and long tail, thumb loop and medium tight top crowd.

Love love love my 2014 Eagle pants. 45 days of heavy use and wearing like new. Cold, warm, dry, wet it's the one I reach for. So comfortable they don't even feel like ski pants. Picked up a pair for the Mrs and now she's on the Trew train as well.

Customer service stellar. The pants I'm in now are replacements for a pair from 2012 that had issues with some of the seams. Dealing w Trew was a pleasure. Called them in the spring. They offered a number of options to remedy including a new pair to be shipped in the fall when the 2014 line came out. Pants showed up on time as promised with a killer note of apology from Trew. Customer for life.


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thanks for the kind words. It is our goal to knock it out of the park with every component of the experience. the product, the customer service, the warranty if it's needed, etc. Thanks for your support and belief in TREW!

noted on your preferences for base layers. i think we're on the right track..

[snuffleupagus]

That was me! Figured it couldn't hurt to throw it out there again. I liked the idea because you guys wouldn't have to change the fit and potentially lose existing customers, just add potential new ones.

Right on! As I mentioned, this is on our radar and we'll get some protos and get photos up here so all of you can see them..

[snuffleupagus]

Shoot for the middle, 13/16 please.



Don't know if you're R&D guys will get to look at them, but I recently warranteed my 1st gen Trewth bibs (easy and awesome warranty process btw, don't go changing) and they had a cobbled together removable suspender system as I found I was burning through the elastic well before the end of a season and needed a way to quickly replace it. Probably a horrible interpretation actually. Don't go looking at them. You're better than that.

i'll definitely take a look! even though it might be a home fix, could be some good ideas in your idea. thanks for letting me know.....

[snuffleupagus]

I got the Trewth Bibs this season and liked them so much, I got a Cosmic jacket too. Bomber, functional designs without all the fluff. Never been a bib guy until now. Only thing I would change is the zippers are still a little stiff even after 1/2 a season of use and could go both ways on the vents. ZIPPERS INSTEAD OF VELCRO on pockets and add a back pocket. Maybe a larger pocket to fit a beacon. Larger zipper on the the fly. The straps have been fine for me, but if they stretch out much more, I'll be bummed.

As far as base layer, I already look too much like a Trew whore, so going full base layer would be really weird. But the qualities that I like in my base layers are slightly baggy fit, and longer length. I'm tall, and have long arms. The main thing that I like about thumb holes, is that it usually ensures that the arms will be long enough for me. Burton midweight crew worked very well for me this season. If I needed more warmth, I pulled on the R1 over it.

Things I like about the R1, since many have mentioned it. Long zipper goes low for venting. Long shirt-tail tucks all the way. Maybe go tuxedo tail style so it's not as long in the front so you don't have to dig through as many layers when you go to take a leak.

Awesome feedback. We are adding another zipper car on the bib side vents for F15 so you'll have better control over the size of the opening. We are debuting a touring specific jacket and pant this fall and the pant will have a beacon pocket. it's awesome....just tested it for a week in BC. I'll get some photos up here soon. Chris and I talked and it's likely we'll put the beacon pocket in all of our pants starting F16.

Sounds like Patagonia nailed it with their R1 as pretty much everyone on this thread loves it. it's our job to see if we can improve it. NuYarn will be a big jump in performance.