Skiing with an axe -- not a whippet

[cloud cult]

Just curious -- seen several photos and videos of people skiing with poles and also an axe -- not a whippet, but a straight shaft ice axe. Do you just hold on to both and plan to drop the pole in a slide, or are the two strapped together somehow and, if so, what sort of strapping method is preferred?

[timmaio]

I use two orange ski straps to attach my axe to my pole. I wrap each strap twice really tight. A whippet is way better because the grip gets pretty bulky once you attach the axe shaft to it.

[GeezerSteve]

I've skied with an axe in one hand and a pole in the other, much more often with 1 Whippet + 1 pole, sometimes with 2 Whippets.

FWIW, ice axe + trekking pole to probe for crevasses is my standard gear when leading a roped glacier crossing and frequent combo for alpine travel on foot, so I'm very comfortable with that combo.

Whatever you choose, the key is to practice arresting from various fall positions and figure out what combo works for you. Dropping the pole makes sense cuz a pole has the potential to fuck you up during an ice axe arrest.

[mall walker]

This is about the most hardcore use of poles + axes I've ever seen.

[galibier_numero_un]

Pretty radical, & it gets more intense at about 6:55, to about 8:00 when he calls up to his buddy: "yeah, you're gonna wanna go with crampons"

Cheers,
Thom

[pfluffenmeister]

This is about the most hardcore use of poles + axes I've ever seen.

"yeah, you're going to want to use crampons."



+ that fish eye go pro lens was brutal.
made the rather exposed terrain look even more so.

[mall walker]

Pretty radical, & it gets more intense at about 6:55, to about 8:00 when he calls up to his buddy: "yeah, you're gonna wanna go with crampons"

Reiner Thoni is a fucking badass. That slide around 9:35ish makes my palms sweat.

[rob stokes]

Much prefer to have a proper axe and proper poles. I don't want the danger of a whippet on all but the steepest and iciest pitches. Rag dolling with a whippet could be realllll bad. Besides a real ice axe when you need a real ice axe can't be substituted.

It would be cool if you could have some clips so you could clip an axe onto a pole, nothing too strong-just something to help you hold onto the two, which can be quite cumbersome.

I'm not sure a whippet is a good thing a lot of the time. I see (Americans usually, one friend refers to them as 'the American flag!') here in Cham using them on some pretty moderate slopes, and they often relay on them too much, eg/ leaning I to the slope to plant them, have them close to the slope and thus not keeping their weight over their edges, which is imperative on steep slopes.

If you get one, try ignore it until you really need it, and ski it without a strap on mellow terrain so you can throw it away when you snag something and take a tomahawk.

[cloud cult]

Thanks, everyone. Great info. And cool video.

[auvgeek]

What you really want is the Vorpal.

Rob, I agree mostly, but whippets can be nice for climbing when ice tools aren't strictly necessary. I've heard from multiple sources (thought fortunately never experienced it myself) that whippets pretty much suck for self arresting.

[skimaxpower]

Grivel Condor is another option. I've never used one, but it seems to address the accidental-stabby-in-the-lung concerns about whippets.

[mall walker]

But I thought the idea was to have the blade out on the descent...? I also don't "get" whippets, but plenty of people a lot radder than me use em.

[Mantana1]

I also don't "get" whippets, but plenty of people a lot radder than me use em.

They have a lot of great uses, other than just self-arresting a fall, which as mentioned is pretty poor compared to a real axe.
1) purchase/security in the uphill hand while sidestepping through a choke/crux
2) hacking through a small cornice to make a skiable entrance
3) cleaning snow/ice from under the springs of a tech toe piece and/or tech fittings on your boot
4) cleaning snow/ice from the rungs of the lower buckle ladders on your boots
5) purchase/security when booting a couloir without a real axe
6) drytooling a small edge/hold on class 3/4/low 5 rock that is too small to simply use a gloved hand on
7) hooking a tree branch on a section of too-steep skin track
8) the list goes on..

[kevino]

9) cooking bacon
10) opening beer bottles

[GeezerSteve]

but plenty of people a lot radder than me use em.

And some people less rad. As my routes have mellowed I stopped using technical axe/tool around 10 years ago and now use a Whippet instead of a walking axe on lots of mellow trips on foot. Of course, an axe is the better tool for lots of routes. But a properly used Whippet is a nice tool to have for some conditions, e.g., skinning up morning firm above exposure.

I've heard from multiple sources (thought fortunately never experienced it myself) that whippets pretty much suck for self arresting.

They self-arrest fine in everything where a walking axe will if you know how to use a Whippet. There are two very different ways to arrest with a Whippet: (a) stab technique using from ski pole grip position; and (b) ice axe arrest with hand over pick. Per experience with both, the (a) stab actually works better with the downhill hand while ascending or traversing. Technique (b) works best if you shorten the pole and hold the Whippet hand-over-pick.

Besides a real ice axe when you need a real ice axe can't be substituted.

I don’t see anyone here suggesting otherwise. Of course you should use the proper tool for the terrain. Duh.

IME the big limitation of a Whippet is the inability to use the shaft in self-belay position. Whippets are great for some things, e.g., skinning up exposed firm slopes. On ski tours, 90% of my Whippet use is on the uphill, yet all the complaints I hear from Whippet haters are about the other 10%. For the 10% of my use (descending) I hold the Whippet hand-over-pick so that the pick faces backwards, thus there's no more chance of impaling yourself than with an ice axe. If the descent does not warrant an axe or Whippet, strap it on your pack and descend with poles.

I see (Americans usually, one friend refers to them as 'the American flag!') here in Cham using them on some pretty moderate slopes, and they often relay on them too much, eg/ leaning I to the slope to plant them, have them close to the slope and thus not keeping their weight over their edges, which is imperative on steep slopes.

Your Eurosmugness is unbecoming. I’ve see more people, skiers and climbers, overrelying on ice axes than Whippets, when they should be loading their skis/feet. Blame the user, not the tool.

[mall walker]

And some people less rad. As my routes have mellowed I stopped using technical axe/tool around 10 years ago and now use a Whippet instead of a walking axe on lots of mellow trips on foot. Of course, an axe is the better tool for lots of routes. But a properly used Whippet is a nice tool to have for some conditions, e.g., skinning up morning firm above exposure.

They self-arrest fine in everything where a walking axe will if you know how to use a Whippet. There are two very different ways to arrest with a Whippet: (a) stab technique using from ski pole grip position; and (b) ice axe arrest with hand over pick. Per experience with both, the (a) stab actually works better with the downhill hand while ascending or traversing. Technique (b) works best if you shorten the pole and hold the Whippet hand-over-pick.

I don’t see anyone here suggesting otherwise. Of course you should use the proper tool for the terrain. Duh.

IME the big limitation of a Whippet is the inability to use the shaft in self-belay position. Whippets are great for some things, e.g., skinning up exposed firm slopes. On ski tours, 90% of my Whippet use is on the uphill, yet all the complaints I hear from Whippet haters are about the other 10%. For the 10% of my use (descending) I hold the Whippet hand-over-pick so that the pick faces backwards, thus there's no more chance of impaling yourself than with an ice axe. If the descent does not warrant an axe or Whippet, strap it on your pack and descend with poles.

Your Eurosmugness is unbecoming. I’ve see more people, skiers and climbers, overrelying on ice axes than Whippets, when they should be loading their skis/feet. Blame the user, not the tool.

This is, as usual for BigSteve, a well worded and totally reasonable response all around.

[angrysasquatch]

11) Hooking trees for extra climbing power on early season skintracks
12) Hooking a rope you set up for a v-thread on the way up to clip in for rap, without putting ski edges too close to the exposed ice

I think it's a pretty useful device. Whippet + 1 axe is remarkably capable. If you need to swing two axes, then the pick on the axes is probably too acute to use as a self-arrest device anyways. I've found relaxed angle picks to be mostly useless for ascent, only very slightly more capable than a whippet pick. I don't worry too much about stabbing myself as I've found my skiing skill level a long time ago and play within it when I'm exposed. When I'm dicking around I cover it up. I also have never been the type to use pole straps.

[mall walker]

Pole straps is another thread entirely, which perhaps should be started/revisited...

[cloud cult]

Could someone explain just how you'd impale yourself with a whippet if you were not using pole straps? Or are they useless without wearing straps? I've never used one skiing, but they don't seem to have a ton of heft to them -- enough for firm snow but maybe not for piercing a hard shell.

[rob stokes]

I don’t see anyone here suggesting otherwise. Of course you should use the proper tool for the terrain. Duh.

Your Eurosmugness is unbecoming. I’ve see more people, skiers and climbers, overrelying on ice axes than Whippets, when they should be loading their skis/feet. Blame the user, not the tool.

I don't see anyone suggesting that either, still worth pointing out though. Right tool for the job, as you say.

Not trying to be smug, just pointing out that most people we see using them are American-so much so that the have been given a nick name-and many use them incorrectly/lean on them too much. Maybe your right with over relaying on an ice axe too, but in my experience here I haven't seen it often in skiers.

It's almost like the act of using a whippet is accepting to be scared and using it as a crutch, finishing turns and leaning in to plant it right when you need to be standing tall and facing down the fall line with weight over your edges. People I see do not ignore them when skiing on steep terrain. But having said that, you don't see experienced/top level steep skiers using them here, not often anyway. I can't see why not though-great tool that has saved my ass at the top of the Rond when I hit some hidden ice.

But at the end of the day we agree on the fact that if you get one, don't fucking lean on it all the time. If you use an axe, don't lean on that either. Stand tall and be confident, or you'll loose an edge.

[ctw55]

Sometimes I ski with a whippet, but lately I have much preferred axe + pole. And... I never seem to adjust my poles. Which gets me thinking I want some fixed length poles.

- lighter
- more comfy when put in between your back and pack
- stronger

Any suggestions? Love the thin diameter of the Dynafit PDG poles, especially when paired with an axe, but durability seems the question. Really like the Black Crows poles and the big foam grip but can't imagine being able to grip my axe as well even though the axe I usually use is quite thin and light. (Camp Corsa Nanotech)

[neufox47]

In general I think people over estimate their ability to arrest in a fall. People who think they are going to use a whippet or ice axe to arrest in high speed and steep / icy conditions are usually fooling themselves. If you are climbing and fall, yes you will have a short window to arrest on steep and icy terrain. When you are skiing even 10 mph on a slope where a fall would result in acceleration - good fucking luck. Hopefully you can get yourself oriented feet first and control the descent, but people have this illusion that they are going to be able to stop when skiing at 20 mph down a firm 40 degree slope.

[GeezerSteve]

^ ^ agree on all points. That's why IMO a whippet is most useful while uphill skinning. A whippet has saved my ass a few times (and so has an axe).

Also, arresting while wearing skis is more difficult than arresting in boots. I have practiced team arrests while roped and wearing skis. It is nearly impossible.

[strawjack]

Yeah, I honestly don' see myself skiing down with a whippet. The thought of it scares the hell out of me. If I need that on the way down, then I personally should not be skiing that slope. Maybe on a sketchy traverse it would come in handy also, but to (whoever mentioned it) point, I can see someone relying too heavily on that instead of staying on your ski edge.

I'm all for using it on the up and if it's easily stashed on the way down, then that would work for me.

[PNWbrit]

In general I think people over estimate their ability to arrest in a fall.

Absolutely.

For instance...

Cross post from the major euro backcountry fail thread.

Anyone else think the second guy could have self-arrested with his poles right after he started to slide?

Looking at the video in question all other mistakes made aside, most of which obviously happened way (hours?) before the video even starts. There is no way that guy is arresting himself with ski poles.