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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawjack View Post
    I'm all for using it on the up and if it's easily stashed on the way down, then that would work for me.
    the whippets that i have are a huge pita to remove from the grips.
    ~~~~
    i use whippets only for the up. when descending or planning on a descent, their presence in my hands is not part of my decisionmaking. i have never had a problem with the sharps when i've fallen with them in my hands while descending. i generally do not use the straps.

    klar just posted a video in the trip reports forum where she's climbing a coulie with whippets. that's how i use mine, too. I also like the plunge the shaft of an axe technique, too, and the technique is klar's vid can result in very wet gloves when in the spring and summer.

    i prefer a fixed length pole over my adjustable poles that have the whippets. i use my very old and trusted scott series 4 poles. i only bring the whippets and their adjustable poles if i am fairly certain that i'll want them on my ascent. (i understand the touring-related efficiency benefits of adjusting pole lengths.)

  2. #27
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    I have never really understood the hate against whippets. Fact is, most people into skiing steeps arent doing so at mach 10. If it is way above somebody's comfort level, they will probably side slip, in which case, the whippet can act as a self belay. If it is is right at the comfort level, it will probably be a series of start-stop jump turns, where if you do slip, the whippet is very capable of arrest. If is below your level, the turns are linked faster and either the cap goes on, or you just dont fall anyway (since its steep skiing, and you dont fall period...)

    When you ice climb or alpine climb (real alpine climbing with pointy tools), you take extra care not to fall because the pointy bits might hurt you. If you eliminate the pointy bits from the equation, they probably wont hurt you, but you will be way more limited in terms of what you can climb. Likewise, whippets are a tool that opens up certain classes of terrain to being within the risk tolerance of certain skiers. I think that folks that come to ski mountaineering from a technical alpine climbing standpoint are more comfortable with tools like whippets vs folks coming from resort skiing or hill-walking.

    Purely for ascent, a camp nano axe and carbon pole is about as light as a whippet, and more versatile with better swing and ability to plunge shaft. Also less fatigue from weight of pole because the axe spends much of the day on your pack. Axe can even be attached to the pole with voile straps if you really want an "arrest grip". Still, I like and use my whippet...

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodywhomper View Post
    the whippets that i have are a huge pita to remove from the grips.
    The pick is removeable only on gen1 whippets, not a great design

  4. #29
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    rod johnson did a nice little mod to his whippets when he worked at marmot mtn works. if i remember right, he shortened the whippet shaft and found a regular ski pole that had the correct OD, (i can't remember if he cut that one or how he dealt with the pole taper). At it's shortest length, the whippet/pole was his preferred downhill length. extended, it was his preferred length for skating.

  5. #30
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    I'd done the same/similar thing

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    In general I think people over estimate their ability to arrest in a fall. People who think they are going to use a whippet or ice axe to arrest in high speed and steep / icy conditions are usually fooling themselves. If you are climbing and fall, yes you will have a short window to arrest on steep and icy terrain. When you are skiing even 10 mph on a slope where a fall would result in acceleration - good fucking luck. Hopefully you can get yourself oriented feet first and control the descent, but people have this illusion that they are going to be able to stop when skiing at 20 mph down a firm 40 degree slope.
    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Absolutely.

    For instance...

    Cross post from the major euro backcountry fail thread.

    Anyone else think the second guy could have self-arrested with his poles right after he started to slide?

    Looking at the video in question all other mistakes made aside, most of which obviously happened way (hours?) before the video even starts. There is no way that guy is arresting himself with ski poles.
    I think that ski crampons are much more useful than a whippet(s) in terrain where if you slip on the climb you could possibly self arrest, don't slip and you have no need for arrest. If you need to boot on hard snow I'd rather have an axe. On the descent once you push the slope over 35 degrees on hard snow you have little if any chance of arresting and on lower angle slopes you won't fall or slip on the descent so a whippet would seem to be of no use. I have and use a whippet but it seems most useful for other tasks not arrest related.

    From personal experience, I would say you have zero % chance of arrest on a 40-45 degree slope on hard snow with skis on. Don't fall, on hard snow avoid slopes with obstacles/exposure or wait for the snow to soften.

  7. #32
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    Absolutely Aaron.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  8. #33
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    Agreed on the ski-pons.

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronWright View Post
    I have and use a whippet but it seems most useful for other tasks not arrest related.
    This is the sentiment that I see a bunch and frankly don't believe (not saying the lie is intentional, as it may be subconscious). It seems like an odd rationalization resulting from the whippet-haters attacking the manhood of the whippet-users. Arrest while skiing (up or down) is the only place where a whippet outperforms (or potentially outperforms) other available tools, IMO.

    The two possibilities that I see are:
    (1) The whippet improves safety on steep terrain because it provides a non-zero possibility of arrest.
    (2) The benefits of the whippet are entirely psychological, providing effectively higher risk exposure if the whippet tips the line into somebody's comfort zone.

    It would be very hard to have a controlled test on the efficacy of the whippet, because nobody wants to go out fall on steep terrain intentionally. I still contend that there are situations where a whippet arrest is possible, when not having a whippet would have resulted in a longer slide.

  9. #34
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    Well, I know that whippet arrests are possible because I've done several of them.

    I use harscheisen, but I don't get the either/or comparison. Why not both? Ascending on hard slopes >35 degrees, boot crampons and an axe are usually safer. We can play the one-up game all day.

    There's another place where I sometimes prefer a whippet over an axe: Leading a rope team across a mellow glacier, where the whippet can be used to probe crevasse bridges. I also like a whippet for mellow snow hikes.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post
    I use harscheisen, but I don't get the either/or comparison. Why not both?
    The harscheisen go in my pack far more often than than I consider taking a whippet?
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post
    Well, I know that whippet arrests are possible because I've done several of them.

    I use harscheisen, but I don't get the either/or comparison. Why not both? Ascending on hard slopes >35 degrees, boot crampons and an axe are usually safer. We can play the one-up game all day.

    There's another place where I sometimes prefer a whippet over an axe: Leading a rope team across a mellow glacier, where the whippet can be used to probe crevasse bridges. I also like a whippet for mellow snow hikes.
    Are you popping the basket off then?

  12. #37
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    Do you guys often carry 'pons and and axe when the plan is to ski powder/mid winter snow?

    I don't throw them in the pack until late spring usually and find the whippet works really well in conditions where encountering hard-ish steep snow may not be a given or the prime objective for the day but may be probable for short distances over some part of the route, usually where kicking steps without 'pons is easy right up until those 3 steps that are not, or for those short sections of wind scoured snow where I realize 10 ft too late and I wish the ski crampons were on my feet instead of in the pack.

    If you are worried about impaling yourself while skiing down with a whippet... maybe it's time to hit the resort for a few more ski lessons.
    Move upside and let the man go through...

  13. #38
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    ^^^^Usually I don't carry a whippet, ski/boot crampons or axe if it's mid winter unless I know I'm gonna climb steeper hard snow. Ski crampons in the spring and a whippet if I know I'll be skinning hard and steeper snow. I really don't have a lot of faith in a whippet for trying to arrest a fall while skiing down steeper terrain on hard snow/ice. Probably different if I was climbing the same terrain/snow. I have no fear of impaling my self on the whippet.

    Maybe skiing with two whippets like Andrew Maclean does would be better?

  14. #39
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    Do people in real life say, "it's getting too steep to skin, it's time to put the 'pons on"?

    I think it's funny to shorten a two syllable word into one.

    And ski 'pons, really? I think the only time I ever wish I had them was climbing breakable crust. Any other time I would consider them, it was far more appropriate to put my real 'pons on.

    Yup, 'pons still sounds weird and I wouldn't say it out loud. ;-)

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    The harscheisen go in my pack far more often than than I consider taking a whippet?
    And skins go in your pack more often than you consider taking harscheisen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mofro261 View Post
    Do you guys often carry 'pons and and axe when the plan is to ski powder/mid winter snow?
    No, unless there's more to the story.
    Last edited by Big Steve; 04-21-2015 at 03:53 PM.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post
    And skins go in your pack more often than you consider taking harscheisen?
    Errr. Obviously.

    Just saying that I'll take them quite often without ever considering taking a whippet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  17. #42
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    Each has his own priority list of gear, I suppose. For me, if conditions warrant harscheisen, they also warrant carrying an axe or whippet. Hey, aren't you the guy with harscheisen for 125mm waist skis?

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post
    Each has his own priority list of gear, I suppose. For me, if conditions warrant harscheisen, they also warrant carrying an axe or whippet. Hey, aren't you the guy with harscheisen for 125mm waist skis?
    Yep.

    Sometimes they are warranted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerome View Post
    Do people in real life say, "it's getting too steep to skin, it's time to put the 'pons on"?

    I think it's funny to shorten a two syllable word into one.

    And ski 'pons, really? I think the only time I ever wish I had them was climbing breakable crust. Any other time I would consider them, it was far more appropriate to put my real 'pons on.

    Yup, 'pons still sounds weird and I wouldn't say it out loud. ;-)
    After owning ski 'pons for many years and never using them, I finally became a convert more recently. As you said, firm collapsible snow is where they really shine. They are also great on a lot of firm side hilling conditions.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by trogdortheburninator View Post
    As you said, firm collapsible snow is where they really shine. They are also great on a lot of firm side hilling conditions.
    Or hiking trails in dense Forrest that are too steep to skin, or really hard to skin.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by trogdortheburninator View Post
    After owning ski 'pons for many years and never using them, I finally became a convert more recently. As you said, firm collapsible snow is where they really shine. They are also great on a lot of firm side hilling conditions.
    Yeah, harcheisen, or ski 'pons, or, uh, ski crampons might be more worthwhile in different territory. I encounter lots of variable snow in California, but hardly ever find a breakable crust that I still can't skin on.

    I dig my whippet though. When I first started using it I thought I'd certainly stab myself with it, but can't really ever imagine doing so since I've used one for so long. As cool as it looks, I have as much faith in that as I do my avalung for saving my life, which is basically, not.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mofro261 View Post
    Do you guys often carry 'pons and and axe when the plan is to ski powder/mid winter snow?

    I don't throw them in the pack until late spring usually and find the whippet works really well in conditions where encountering hard-ish steep snow may not be a given or the prime objective for the day but may be probable for short distances over some part of the route, usually where kicking steps without 'pons is easy right up until those 3 steps that are not, or for those short sections of wind scoured snow where I realize 10 ft too late and I wish the ski crampons were on my feet instead of in the pack.

    If you are worried about impaling yourself while skiing down with a whippet... maybe it's time to hit the resort for a few more ski lessons.
    Agree with all of this. I will also carry a whippet and an ice axe on a rout for which two axes or tools is overkill, but when there might be a small sketchy section for which I want to use both hands.

    If skinning is going to be slick for a while, crampons or ski crampons are the ticket, but one also runs briefs skinning "cruxes" for which transitioning is unwarranted, but a bit of extra security is welcome, especially is a slip would be dangerous.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronWright View Post
    Maybe skiing with two whippets like Andrew Maclean
    The guy who says that ski 'pons are "backcountry crutches?"

    Why does a discussion of whippets and ski 'pons aka harscheisen push some people's emotional buttons?

  24. #49
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    Whenever I'm planning on going up steeper terrain I'll bring a whippet along since there is almost no weight or hassle penalty and I use it for lots of things other than arresting (as has been described by others above). Once it gets genuinely steep (50deg+) an ax is the way to go for ascending, particularly when the snow isn't firm and doesn't provide purchase for the pick. Then inserting the ax shaft provides a much more secure purchase. In those kind of conditions I'll go with crampons, ascent plates an ax and in some cases a shovel handle or the whole shovel.

    For arrests on firm snow with skis on, I feel speed is the key (getting a pick into the snow). Hard to beat a whippet for this (two is better). If the snow surface isn't firm enough to hold a tool well, then the only arrest devices of any value are the skis themselves. The key again is speed (in this case, getting the skis downhill). A whippet or ax can help with this, even if it won't actually stop you.
    "I just want to thank everyone who made this day necessary." -Yogi Berra

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post
    The guy who says that ski 'pons are "backcountry crutches?"

    Why does a discussion of whippets and ski 'pons aka harscheisen push some people's emotional buttons?
    I don't care either way, I have a whippet and sometimes use it. I was just positing that maybe whippets would be more effective if you were to use two, like the designer does.
    I think you may be the one having their emotional buttons pushed. If whippet work for you on steep hard snow, that's great.

    Most of the time I don't worry about it because I have the flexibility to do something else if I know it will be hard and nasty snow. If I had limited time, like just the weekends I would most likely carry all this stuff because I would want to get out conditions be damned.

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