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Thread: Unweighted custom footbeds.
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03-04-2015, 10:13 AM #1
Unweighted custom footbeds.
Does anyone here like Korc-Vac footbeds?
Any general comments on differences between weighted and unweighted?
Random question: all customs seem to be heat-moldable. When heating custom liner to mold, is it better to place footbeds in freezer beforehand, and/or place an old footbed in liner while heating to block the heat transfer to location where custom footbed will be placed and subjected to plastic-deforming heat transfer from the cooked liner???
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03-04-2015, 10:37 AM #2
I had cork footbeds once, and they were terrible. IDK if they were made badly or if it's just the tech, but they were just a bunch of cold and uncomfortable lumps under my feet. With weighted, the tech who makes them can smooth out the forefoot and keeps down a lot of lumps and the arch under my foot is big and long and high, which I need.
Second question of yours: I have repeatedly put them into liners after baking them and the arch is still up there. I never even posted them. Actually, I think Intuitions have enough foam in the bottom to make a bit of a post. Just don't leave the footbeds in the liner when you put it on the blower or in the oven (obviously). If the footbed is posted, it definitely won't fall.
Good luck!
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03-04-2015, 10:46 AM #3
According to Intuition, you put footbeds in after heating but before placing boot on foot. See #7. Makes sense
https://intuitionliners.com/fitting/...-instructions/Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon.
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03-04-2015, 10:50 AM #4
I like my Superfeet Korks in my Factors. Supportive, warm (Outlast material). They're high-ish volume though, which I found out when the shop to whom I paid way too much money baked a of insoles for my Maestrale RSs, which when destroyed my feet. Still need to get that fixed. IIRC, both times I had them done (two different shops) they were baked in the oven, vacuumed on, smoothed by hand unweighted, and then weighted. Once they were done, Intuitions into the oven, out one liner at a time, insole into liner, liner into boot, foot into liner. I've taken both sets of insoles out and there was no damage from the hot Intuitions during the molding process.
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03-04-2015, 03:21 PM #5Registered User
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been hearing good things about ZipFit. these are entire liners (not just footbed). for the past 7 years i've had Surefoot custom footbeds that i've been really happy with. in fact, my apline boots are so comfy, i'm having a hard time justifying purchasing new ones and upgrading technology.
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03-04-2015, 10:02 PM #6
In general unweighted footbeds give you more support (higher) and weighted or partially weighted footbeds give you a lower (flatter) end product.
As to which is better, that's a subject of constant debate in the boot world. Typically the proponents of unweighted happen to sell that type of product/process, while the proponents of partially weighted/fully weighted happen to sell that type of product/use that type of apparatus - it's hard to find really impartial advice. What's best for you will depend on factors like arch mobility, subtalar stability, what you're used to, etc.
As with any custom product, the skill of the bootfitter is critical. The best practitioners have found ways to adapt either method to get good results for a variety of skiers.
As for changing the shape of custom footbeds while heat molding liners, I wouldn't worry about it as long as the footbed doesn't go in the oven and it's relatively stable (meaning posted using foam/cork/heel stabilizer).
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03-05-2015, 11:18 AM #7Registered User
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http://www.yoursole.com/ca
I have several pair of custom made 3/4 length orthotics at 250-400$ a pop and they were all made by pro foot doc types mostly unweighted as i remember, I have used them in street shoes and ski boots over the years, but nowadys most of the time I have several pair of these^^^^ in different thicknesses (black & red) which are only 45$ so not custom, they ARE heat moldable but I don't heatmold cuz I have flat feet and I want the arch support and the sole's give lots of arch support
Altho I did heat mold the 1st pair, you thro them in the oven, when the little silver sticker on the bottom turns black take them out and stand on them, cut the forefoot to the shape of your foot. You can sand the grey foam off the bottom of the footbed which is what I do to give more toe roomLee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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03-05-2015, 11:29 AM #8
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03-05-2015, 12:57 PM #9
Lots of podiatrists and pedorthists understand walking and standing around, but not all of them understand skiing (there are some that do). Arguments in favor of unweighted systems like subtalar neutral alignment promoting better dorsiflexion and "natural" foot movement I take with a grain of salt - how much dorsiflexion is possible with your foot in a 130 flex boot, anyway? How many people do any "action" sport with their ankles in a subtalar neutral position, for that matter?
I hear more complaints about too much support from unweighted footbeds than not enough support from partially weighted ones, but again it depends on who's doing the molding.
Agree that a home-moldable semi-custom footbed or a stock trim-to-fit is fine and way cheaper - if it fits you and puts you in the right position to ski well.
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03-05-2015, 02:24 PM #10Registered User
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For kicks I put a custom orthotic in one ski boot and a sole in the other as a comparison but at the end of the day I couldn't remember which boot had which orthotic and they both felt the same/good ... so now I just use soles
Those $$$ custom orthotics were primarily FOR walking/running and the extended medical payed for all of them not me, I buy the soles cuz they work for my foot and its way less hassle than going to the foot guy twice even if they are payed for by my medical, I have tried green superfeet but didn't find them as good which is not to say they don't work just not as well for me
I think of ski boot orthotics as some thing to take up that space in the arch which ultimately puts the ski flat on the piste and I can't get an edge in properly without an arch supportLee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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03-06-2015, 07:20 AM #11
This, but will add that when you go to a doc and get a Rx orthotic, it's unweighted. More accurately, you put your foot down on the mold while in sitting position, tech pressures your foot down just enough to get a full mold. Because point of orthotic is to realign arch toward a normal height.
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03-06-2015, 07:43 AM #12Banned
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03-06-2015, 08:45 AM #13
There isn't a "normal" standard, prescription orthotics are made unweighted because the techs are trained to make them that way. They don't take into account the fact that you might be dorsiflexed forward at 12 to 15 degrees, or you lower leg encased in a chunk of rock hard plastic, or applying huge loads to the foot during turns, etc.
Good ski boot techs will usually check arch mobility (by doing a Windlass assessment), observe your biomechanics while you weight the foot (pronation/supination, width changes, navicular issues), look at what you have previously used for footbeds (or note that fact that you don't use them), check for forefoot varus/valgus, ask about plantar nerve sensitivity, etc. There's a huge range of potential "normal" or "proper" heights that's left to the tech to interpret/decide, basically ranging from the maximum height you see when you apply full upward pressure on the big toe in the Windlass to fully weighted on a hard surface. Like ski boot shells, there isn't a single correct way of casting footbeds for every foot.
When you get a custom ski footbed made, you're hoping the person making them has a range of experience, takes the right data into account, and makes the right judgement calls with regard to your foot. Unfortunately not many skiers get to "demo" a range of footbeds made by different people, they just go to a bootfitter who's been recommended by others or use the shop where they buy the boots.
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03-06-2015, 09:09 AM #14Banned
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Sorry Greg, they were thematic questions of a rhetorical kind, not ones seeking precise answer. It was a riff on your earlier observation:
As to which is better, that's a subject of constant debate in the boot world.
My first footbed was a Superfeet Cork molded some time around 1981. It aimed at anatomic neutral. It was very firm, but better than no arch support, there was no loss of engagement when I tipped/rolled a foot to gain an edge. My next footbed was made in 2000 and it too is posted but is made of a more forgiving synthetics sandwich. My current footbed was made in 2010 and is the flattest I've ever used, no posting, but far better for my skiing, I feel more subtleties underfoot and skiing is more comfortable because my arch actually can work as suspension. Three different people on the 3 different footbeds and I'm guessing "state of the art" and/or general majority preference changed during the 30 years. The person who molded the current footbed explained the arch suspension concept to me when I observed they felt flatter than my then-existing footbeds. "Trust me, this will be better," he said. He was right.
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03-06-2015, 10:19 AM #15
The "flatness" of the footbed and the way it is posted are two separate issues, but yes, in general bootfitters are going flatter and with less solid posting these days. Even top alpine racers are using "partially" posted footbeds with some "suspension" now, and it definitely enhances comfort. I'm guessing a guy like Ted Ligety wouldn't do this if he felt it compromised his ability to arc a turn.
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03-09-2015, 10:24 AM #16
Hmm, good info in this thread.
My last footbed, made by a top-100 bootfitter (I think), with much thought, was only 20% weighted (and posted), but man was it SOFT.
It was cushy. So soft the material probably would have made a comfortable sofa cushion.
The new one is rock-hard in comparison. Also, it is basically devoid of forefoot contouring.
It is a kork-vac.
After two hours one foot was sore, and the next morning the opposite foot feels like I've squatted 350 lbs in dress-shoes.
Yikes, I hope that the foot can adapt and that it isn't bad for the foot to be in such a rigid footbed.
I'm not a podiatrist and know very little about feet, but I do know that every footbed I've been in doesnt have arch support that extends the whole length of the arch. Where all these footbeds have support, the foot actually doesn't need it (or doesn't feel like it does). It may support the ankle bones, but not the ARCH.
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03-09-2015, 10:45 AM #17Registered User
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"Soft" isn't going to make your feet more comfortable, support is gona make your feet more comfortable, I have a pair of orthotics in the quiver that were custom made in 1982, buddy made plaster molds of my feet while they were unweighted, cut them off to make the orthotics from a clear orange plastic I can see thru ... so they are hard as fuck and very comfortable
Some one told me the guys who made those back in the day were breathing nasty stuff when they were molding and grinding the plastic and asked if the podiatrist was still aliveLee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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03-09-2015, 11:51 AM #18
Soft vs hard or really, firm vs flexible has to do with foot flexibility. It would be brutally painful for me to ski a firm plastic or heavily posted footbed. On the flip side, the footbed I use would likely not provide enough support for someone with a very flexible foot, even if they had less 'arch' than me.
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03-09-2015, 12:00 PM #19
Everybody's foot is different. The number of feet I've fondled over the past 10 years has left me in awe at the variety of foot shape and structure out there. I have made quite a few foot beds over that time. Started with Superfeet Kork Vac's and now we are making Conformable product on pillows. Since we made the switch we have had much less follow up appointments which can include going as far as making a completely new bed. A rigid, fully posted, foot bed may still work for some, but I am a big believer in allowing flexibility/ mobility in a sport as dynamic as skiing. Especially when our stance has gone much more neutral and smaller side to side (edge-to-edge) movements are replacing the big fore and aft movements of the past. It's been interesting to talk to shops who are still holding on to the idea of a fully-posted, rigid foot bed for all their customers. Sure certain people will respond well to them but I definitely got tired of people coming back with a cork bed explaining how it felt like they had been standing on a broomstick all day in their boots.
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03-09-2015, 04:10 PM #20
I can tell that landing even casual airs off traverse humps, any intentional air, blasting refrozen crud, and perhaps bumps will now be more painful and transfer all the energy to my feet (and on up) whereas before none of the above bothered my feet.
I hope I can get used to this.
Or I'll just say **** it, take advantage of Superfeet's 60 day no-questions ask guarantee (perhaps milking some questions (and more service) from shop), and go back to my cushiony beds by the top-100 guy.
For some reason, the sidas conformables never quite did it. Plus they are too narrow. I do have them though. So I could also go with those.
The soft cushioned customs may work without a vacuum boot remold, but the conformables have different heel height and absolutely would necessitate a vacuum remold. I wanted to wait until some pack-out before second mold (the ultralon foam is only on the shell-side of liner. Inside of liner is identical to first generation vacuum liners.
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03-10-2015, 10:53 AM #21
Yeah, the Kork-Vacs are going straight back to the shop for a refund.
Two hours skiing on Sunday, and two days later there's still severe pain in right foot.
I guess rigid unweighted-molded footbeds are not good for a flexible, collapsing foot.
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03-10-2015, 02:24 PM #22
I've been through several pair of footbeds, including custom made soft corks which are fine, but I like my wide Superfeet Greens the best.
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03-10-2015, 03:37 PM #23
Is there some reason you can't use the old squishy ones that never bothered you? Footbeds last a long time.
Like I said, how you cast it and how you post it are separate decisions, and a lot depends on what the skier is used to. Plus, there are different footbed blanks with varying degrees of flexibility and padding (most shops only stock one kind, unfortunately).
Personally I really like the Superfeet Kork posting material, but they won't sell it to you unless you buy into the whole package. Still, it's possible to vary the amount of support you give any given foot in the casting process, and also in posting by varying the thickness and density of the foam or cork you use to post.
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03-10-2015, 05:04 PM #24
I found myself wanting more arch support, and intentionally dorsiflexing my big toes to force an arch and rigid midfoot to create the support that wasn't there when I wanted it.
Forcing aggressive turns through bumps and surfaces you ski cause you're on vacation and don't have choice... Well, then I just let the arches relax and absorb the chatter.
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03-10-2015, 10:34 PM #25Registered User
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I use green super feet insoles in my touring boots with intuitions. In my Dobermans, I have about ten year old conformable liners with pretty hard foam. I used their footbed and have been pleased. I believe them when they say a cheap insole will allow your foot to collapse during the pressure of the foam curing process
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