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  1. #1
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    Salomon 912 / 914 / STH Binding Mod for Rockered AT Boots

    Wasn't thrilled with the Lord or Warden & wanted a single-pivot binding with some metal in it...IMHO this is the toe Salmon should have made instead of the Warden, and they could have used mostly existing Salomon parts.

    Take an STH-16 binding (so you can fine-tune the toe height with the adjustment screw), mill the bottom of the metal toe pedestals flat (the castings have a bit of curve to them), mill the edges a bit so they're the same width with as STH-14 plastic pedestals, mill out the inner ribs in a 914 sliding AFD (or use a slightly modified Z-toe sliding AFD), and make spacer plates to lift the pedestal high enough to compensate for AT boots. The toe lugs on my Maestrale RS's are 5mm higher, so I made spacers using 3/16" (4.75mm) flat bar. First pair is done to fit my CAST setup, doing three more pair in a block at once. (With a 3/16" thick spacer, you don't really need to mill or grind the sides of the toe pedestal, could just grind down the edges of the AFD baseplate a bit so it's flush with the spacer.) Put Binding Freedom inserts in your skis, so you can use readily-available M5 screws (instead of going through hell trying to find the correct length binding screw).



    If you use STH-12 Driver or STH-14 bindings with plastic toe pedestals, they already fit the 914 sliding AFD (or current Z-toe sliding AFD with some minor hacksaw work) and no pedestal machining is required.

    Salomon could have easily made this same toe setup using an injection-molded plastic spacer that takes the curve of the STH-16 toe pedestal into account, plus some longer screws. How easy & low-cost it could have been.

    (Sorry I won't be making any of these for sale (unless you're willing to pay a truly absurd amount of cash), with the toe pedestal work they're way too time consuming on a manual mill to be able to sell them at a reasonable price.)
    Last edited by 1000-oaks; 12-18-2016 at 08:39 PM.

  2. #2
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    That's frickin' awesome, 1000-oaks.

  3. #3
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    Was thinking about this very thing, this morning. Nicely done!

  4. #4
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    Here are some cell phone photos showing how you could modify easy-to-find Z-toe sliding AFD's to work with STH-12 Driver or STH-14 toes. (I haven't mounted this setup, but it should certainly work.) It's not as "factory" and elegant as using 914 sliding AFD's, but those are really, really hard to find.

    Use a screwdriver to disconnect the sliding mechanism from the Z baseplate. Hacksaw out sections of the baseplate at the red lines & break off the protruding fins in the middle.



    Here's how it will look when done (with the upper toe removed so you can see, but it doesn't have to be removed). Cut off the extra baseplate in front of the pedestal if you want to clean up the look, but it's not necessary. Mount binding toe assembly to ski as usual.



    If you want to reinforce the baseplate, add some epoxy putty (sometimes called epoxy ribbon) in the voids before you screw the binding down on the ski. Add enough so the putty bulges out of the voids a bit, so it will flatten into position when the binding is mounted. Wipe a film of oil or liquid wax on the topsheet where the epoxy will touch it, so it releases when you want to take the bindings off.


  5. #5
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    Suprechicken is trying the Z-toe approach, maybe he can chime in on how it's working.

  6. #6
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    Nice work 1KOaks. Mad machinist skillz.
    Did the last unsatisfied fat soccer mom you took to your mom's basement call you a fascist? -irul&ublo
    Don't Taze me bro.

  7. #7
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    Another way to skin the "AT boot in alpine binding" cat

    Found some sth14s in my horde. Z toe AFDs were $20 at proski. Hacksaw work was easy.

    Then I thought about putting a new set of holes in my now limited edition 191 billy goats, buying new sth plates for $300 and chose to stick with my shaved blocks in a p18 setup...for now. Especially given the beta i got from marshal and a specific din change recommendations (turn down the toe din by 2) I got from proski.

    It's completely inferior to drew's frankenbinding. But I don't have any milling skills and I don't want to run a cast with a plastic binding...

    So back to square 1...

    Not that I don't want to try it. Just being cheaper than usual.

    Also I need more skis. In which to try this
    Last edited by SupreChicken; 02-07-2015 at 10:27 AM.
    wait!!!! waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait...Wait!
    Zoolander wasn't a documentary?

  8. #8
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    ^ If you use the epoxy putty to fill the voids, you could probably get away with using the STH-16 toe with your Z-AFD. The curve on the bottom is pretty gradual. You'll just have to grind off the sides of the pedestal until if fits in the Z-AFD, maybe 1/16" on each side. And round off the sharp points at the trailing edge of the pedestal, it'll be obvious what has to come off when you try to fit it in the AFD baseplate. (Look at the photo of my metal pedestals.)

  9. #9
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    Seriously impressive!

  10. #10
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    I wonder on the fks 18/155 with the one piece toe, the one where the whole toe moves, would putting upward pressure on the toe affect the lateral release force? I also have a sliding AFD from geze I will fuck with the setup one I know my AT bindings are good for multi day skiing.

  11. #11
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    Think a shop would have a geze sliding AFD set for sale?
    wait!!!! waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait...Wait!
    Zoolander wasn't a documentary?

  12. #12
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    My geze are early 90's. Doubt it.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by daught View Post
    would putting upward pressure on the toe affect the lateral release force?
    You mean upward pressure from getting backseat? Or upward pressure from jamming a thick WTR sole into a DIN binding? (which is definitely a bad idea)

  14. #14
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    If anyone makes their own spacers, 3/16" is on the edge of being too thick, because lifting up the toe pedestal puts its trailing edge fairly close to the boot sole and you don't want the boot hanging up on the pedestal. STH-16 metal pedestals are lower in back then STH-12/14 and can be ground down a bit to increase sole clearance.

    A more conservative approach would be to use a 1/8" (about 3mm) spacer and dial up the toe height adjustment about 2mm above DIN height (for rockered AT soles). For guys with WTR soles, a 3mm spacer would be perfect to maintain the DIN toe height on the pedestal.

    Some AT boot guys don't even use a spacer and just adjust the toe 5mm up on the pedestal, but that really puts a lot of leverage on it and moves the release spring follower too high on the pedestal (the upper half isn't even touching the pedestal). Apparently it works, but I wouldn't trust it. Break off the pedestal and you've just lost the toe in the snow.

  15. #15
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    Another way to skin the "AT boot in alpine binding" cat

    FWIW, I've hammered my STH16s and STH14s pretty damn hard without issues for 2 years now on the Cochise tech soles (lots of 30'+ powder hucks, 20' hardpack hucks, cranking turns in nasty snow, ripping heel screws out, etc). If you're a normal sized dude, or a bigger dude that doesn't go balls out, dialing the toe height up enough for the Cochises probably will be just fine on the pedastal. I'm about 5'10 and 165 naked.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000-oaks View Post
    IMHO this is the toe Salmon should have made instead of the Warden, and they could have used mostly existing Salomon parts.
    Great work and I fully agree with this!


    Unfortunately, the market is stupid as always and according to infos from Salomon employees at the ISPO when the Warden came out, they decided for a toe piece with an orthogonally oriented spring, because if "it doesn't look like a Marker Jester, it doesn't sell".

  17. #17
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    good work, 1000O

  18. #18
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    Wow. Just wow.

  19. #19
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    really? You can't guess it?
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    Chapeau!
    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    This is kinda like the goose that laid the golden egg, but shittier.

  20. #20
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    Quick snapshot of three pair of spacers being rough-shaped. Don't have access to a CNC, so I roughed it out on a manual mill and then smoothed the curved edges with a 4.5" disc grinder.

    Here's what it looks like assembled. With the 4.75mm spacer, the toe assembly is in the same position on the pedestal as it would be for a DIN sole without a spacer. Using STH-12 Driver / STH-14 toes would be a lot less work, since the plastic pedestals don't need to be machined to fit the 914 AFD. (The "tails" on the spacer do need an angle ground on the inside edges to fit the beveled corner of the AFDs though.)

    Nice that the tech inserts are below the wings, so no metal-to-wing contact.
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    Last edited by 1000-oaks; 01-05-2019 at 06:29 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000-oaks View Post
    Quick snapshot of three pair of spacers being rough-shaped. Don't have access to a CNC, so I roughed it out on a manual mill and then smoothed the curved edges with a 4.5" disc grinder.

    Here's what it looks like assembled. With the 4.75mm spacer, the toe assembly is in the same position on the pedestal as it would be for a DIN sole without a spacer. Using STH-12 Driver / STH-14 toes would be a lot less work, since the plastic pedestals don't need to be machined to fit the 914 AFD. (The ribs in the AFD baseplate still need to be milled out to accommodate the flat spacer though.)

    Nice that the tech inserts are below the wings, so no metal-to-wing contact.
    You're my hero. In spite of the fact that I don't huck anything significant these daze, I'd do these mods on principle. My only problem is that (not having tools for this at home), I'd have to draw this up for my machinist and it's extremely difficult to keep him focused. In spite of any instructions i give him, he always turns out work in inverse priority. Still, your updates are fun to follow.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  22. #22
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    I have a new setup to mount up soon (916s) so I might try to find some cheap sliding toe Salomons at ski swaps this autumn, and maybe even modify some existing setups if I find lots of cheap sliding AFDs and can source the right screws. Questions though (1000-oakes): with a ~3mm spacer would the toe height adjust well to suit both an alpine and fully rockered sole? And could plastic be used as an easier-for-a-non-machinist solution (thin chopping board, UHMW, perspex, etc)?

    I mounted my previous two setups to accommodate the sole length of both my touring and alpine boots but never ended up skiing them with touring boots as the binding toepiece seemed had to sit very high on the pedestal (sitting on the tapered part which gave a bit of toepiece wiggle without a boot engaged). Friends have used WTR-style semi-rockered soles in standard STH models in the past with no big problems, and one friend did ski Mercuries in standard STH 14s (fixed AFDs) but eventually snapped the plastic pedestal in a crash.
    Last edited by LC; 08-16-2015 at 11:22 AM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LC View Post
    I mounted my previous two setups to accommodate the sole length of both my touring and alpine boots but never ended up skiing them with touring boots as the binding toepiece seemed had to sit very high on the pedestal (sitting on the tapered part which gave a bit of toepiece wiggle without a boot engaged). Friends have used WTR-style semi-rockered soles in standard STH models in the past with no big problems, and one friend did ski Mercuries in standard STH 14s (fixed AFDs) but eventually snapped the plastic pedestal in a crash.
    Sounds sketchy, stuff breaking sounds like a big problem ... I don't think I would do that
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LC View Post
    I have a new setup to mount up soon (916s) so I might try to find some cheap sliding toe Salomons at ski swaps this autumn
    Toes with the plastic pedestals (912, 914, STH12, STH14) are a lot easier to do this mod, because the pedestal bases are a bit more narrow and drop right into 914 (very hard to get) or Z-toe (super easy to get) sliding AFD's.


    Quote Originally Posted by LC View Post
    maybe even modify some existing setups if I find more and can source the right screws.
    CAST was nice enough to sell me a box of long Salomon screws (I have two of their kits), as I recall they're 25mm so you'd have to grind them down to the length you need. No doubt ski shops can also order these for you, I could check the part number later. Or put inserts in your skis for the toe holes and use M5 machine screws.


    Quote Originally Posted by LC View Post
    Questions though (1000-oakes): with a ~3mm spacer would the toe height adjust well to suit both an alpine and fully rockered sole?
    That would probably be ideal. I think I might be able to drop my toes to DIN height even with the 4.75mm spacers, but if they go that low they'd definitely be close to bottomed out. I don't own any boots with DIN soles right now, so I can't check.


    Quote Originally Posted by LC View Post
    could plastic be used as an easier-for-a-non-machinist solution (thin chopping board, UHMW, perspex, etc)?
    Probably, but 1/8" aluminum flat bar is cheap, easy to find at most any hardware store, and can easily be drilled and cut by hand with a coping saw. Just get a plastic STH-12/14 pedestal and trace the footprint onto the aluminum, and cut it out. Your hand shaping doesn't have to be anywhere near perfect as long as the spacers fit into the Z-toe AFD baseplate, and you can oversize the screw holes to give you margin for position error. I made my spacers a LOT more dimensionally precise than they need to be, only because I have access to a mill.


    Quote Originally Posted by LC View Post
    I mounted my previous two setups to accommodate the sole length of both my touring and alpine boots but never ended up skiing them with touring boots as the binding toepiece seemed had to sit very high on the pedestal (sitting on the tapered part which gave a bit of toepiece wiggle without a boot engaged). Friends have used WTR-style semi-rockered soles in standard STH models in the past with no big problems, and one friend did ski Mercuries in standard STH 14s (fixed AFDs) but eventually snapped the plastic pedestal in a crash.
    Lindahl said he's skied the hell out of STH-14s adjusted to WTR sole height without breakage, but going high enough for rockered AT boots is pushing your luck. If you wanted to go that high without a spacer, the metal 916 pedestal would be stronger, but it doesn't fit the sliding AFDs unless you grind or machine down the sides.

    So pick your poison:
    (1) Using plastic 912/914/STH-12/STH-14 pedestals with sliding AFDs and no spacer is almost no work, but weakest and reportedly sometimes breaks with rockered AT soles (probably okay with WTR).

    (2) Using plastic 912/914/STH-12/STH-14 pedestals with ~3mm (or ~4.75mm for rockered AT sole) DIY spacer and sliding AFD requires some fabrication work, and is just as strong as original 914/STH-14 because the toe is very close to the original operating height.

    (3) Using modified metal 916/920/STH-16 pedestal with ~3mm (or ~4.75mm for rockered AT sole) DIY spacer and sliding AFD is as bulletproof as original 916/STH-16, but is a lot of work.
    Last edited by 1000-oaks; 08-16-2015 at 12:48 PM.

  25. #25
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    Pretty much what I thought on all points, thanks.

    I had a quick look at an STH 16 Steel here and the toe height when set for my pretty new alpine soles measures 5mm higher than when screwed down to their lowest position. So in theory I could add a 5mm spacer and still bring them down to DIN height. 3-4mm spacers would leave a little margin for error.

    I'm kind of tempted to make spacers for at least one of my pairs of bindings even if I don't find sliding AFDs (although I do usually see a few pairs of old sliding 914s each year at ski swaps even when I'm not looking out for them), and then ocassionally ski my touring boots in a fixed AFD binding. I'd take it easy when skiing them and maybe dial the toe DIN down a little with rubber soles, but like I said above a friend used Mercuries in standard STH 14s as his everyday ski a few winters back, released when he should, and it was the pedestal that broke on a very hard crash (plastic on the STH 14, and he had the toe sitting very high which this mod gives the workaround for). My toes would be 916s or STH16 Steels (all I use now, mainly for longterm durability reasons) so I would grind down the sides - doesn't look like you took much off of yours in the original photos.

    There are some lift-served or bootpack-only days around here where a long walk out and home sometimes makes me pick my touring setup over an alpine one, purely because of the comfier & more walkable boots. I mounted a couple of new setups last year to hopefully be able to do this, even with fixed AFDs, but the toe height thing put me off.

    Something to think about in the autumn anyway.
    Last edited by LC; 08-16-2015 at 12:39 PM.

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