G3 Ion vs Fritschi Vipec??

[wilcox510]

G3 Ion vs Fritschi Vipec??

Been on old school Dynafits and Plums for years, never been much of a resort skier. My kids are getting old enough to ski now, so I'm resort skiing more than I used to, still more interested in touring. So I've been thinking about getting some Ions or Vipecs, both of which theoretically offer some safety advantages for inbounds skiing compared to my bindings. Not interested in the significant weight increase of Beasts or Kingpins. So, for 80/20 touring/resort, which would you get and why? The toe elasticity of the Vipec seems like potentially a big deal. Not so sure about the "forward pressure" or elasticity or whatever you want to call it of the Ion. That doesn't seem like it would be nearly as beneficial as the toe elasticity for resort (or any) skiing, but I could be totally wrong. It sound like Ion is significantly easier to get in and out of than Vipec. What about ease of changing heel risers and tour/ski mode change?

[Knut]

I'd wait or next year's Vipec, if you're interested in buying one. The toe release mechanism will get a significant overhaul.

[skimaxpower]

So, for 80/20 inbounds/touring use, which would you get and why?

You probably won't like this answer, but for 80% resort use there's no way I would use a tech binding. Too fragile, too spendy, and not as reliable of a release. There are plenty of good "plate" touring bindings for 80% resort use. I'd go with Marker Tour F12.

[summit]

You forgot the total lack of vibration dampening with tech.

Unless it is for a powder ski, then there aren't high frequency bad vibes.

I'd wait or next year's Vipec, if you're interested in buying one. The toe release mechanism will get a significant overhaul.

Wait they already did that. What is changing now?

[1000-oaks]

So, for 80/20 inbounds/touring use, which would you get and why?

Definitely F10 (or F12 if you need the higher DIN), they ski inbounds just fine and are basically a Squire with tour mode. Safer and better performance inbounds.

[wilcox510]

Im not that smart. I meant 80% touring, 20% resort (original posted edited for clarity)

[Knut]

You forgot the total lack of vibration dampening with tech.

The Beast16 handles those pretty well. The Trab TR2 and Vipec aren't too bad either. So this statement is only true for the classic type of pintech binding.

Wait they already did that. What is changing now?

They changed the pin mount, that's all.
Next year's vipec will get a significant overhaul and quite some of the mechanics of the toe piece will work different



-release value and manual opening for step-in are completely independent, a second spring will fulfil this job
-the front lever gets some bulgy enlargements that should prevent pre-release in walk mode
-the full release value resistance is present on the full way of the lateral toe elasticity, and not as before gradually increasing with moving out of the centre position
-the binding will be black (veeery improtant )

Having destroyed a TourF12 and a Baron, both at the hinge where the front piece connects to the frame, I wouldn't want any of those for resort skiing. And they suck for touring as well. The frame binding is a dying species, imo.

[summit]

The Beast16 handles those pretty well. The Trab TR2 and Vipec aren't too bad either. So this statement is only true for the classic type of pintech binding.




They changed the pin mount, that's all.
Next year's vipec will get a significant overhaul and quite some of the mechanics of the toe piece will work different


-release value and manual opening for step-in are completely independent, a second spring will fulfil this job
-the front lever gets some bulgy enlargements that should prevent pre-release in walk mode
-the full release value resistance is present on the full way of the lateral toe elasticity, and not as before gradually increasing with moving out of the centre position
-the binding will be black (veeery improtant )

Having destroyed a TourF12 and a Baron, both at the hinge where the front piece connects to the frame, I wouldn't want any of those for resort skiing. And they suck for touring as well. The frame binding is a dying species, imo.

Guess I have not skied my vipecs on too much hard pack but i was just assuming that metal screws to metal pins to metal inserts in the boots are going to result in the same vibration problems I had with my old school Dynafits.

As far as the improvements for the vipec toes seems good but incremental not major

[Knut]

Well, if the changement of nearly all the inner mechanics of the toe piece isn't major for you, then I wouldn't know what is.

[LeeLau]

The Beast16 handles those pretty well. The Trab TR2 and Vipec aren't too bad either. So this statement is only true for the classic type of pintech binding.

Knut the picture didn't show up. The Kingpin was also pretty good but of course its got other issues

[skimaxpower]

Im not that smart. I meant 80% touring, 20% resort

I see. Sorry I misunderstood you. In that case, a tech binding makes some sense. Whatever you get, make sure it comes with brakes.

I haven't skied the Ion or Vipec, so I'll leave it to others to comment on their merits. But if reliable release is you primary concern, a tech binding will always be limited.

[nickel]

-the binding will be black (veeery improtant )

As far as the improvements for the vipec toes seems good but incremental not major

Jesus Christ man, try to keep up! They'll be goddamn BLACK!

[GeezerSteve]

But if reliable release is you primary concern, a tech binding will always be limited.

Dynafit bindings have released every bit as reliably as DH bindings for me. The issue with Dynafits is the lack of elasticity, not reliability of release. IME, Dynafits work great for lift-served skiing on soft snow days, but will rattle your teeth and fatigue the heel pins on hardpack.

[wilcox510]

right, the last of elasticity seems to be the issue for in bounds use. Vipec toe helps with that. Does the Ion heel "elasticity" help with that? I wouldn't think so, but don't know

[wilcox510]

anyone else??

[pureantigravity]

80/20 touring/resort = how many resort days? 1,2, 10?

I really don't suggest considering any tech binding for resort use except perhaps a Beast 14/16. And regular ski bindings are not so expensive and offer much better release at the toe. It's not worth the risk to your tibia or fibia to suffer tech bindings on the usual ski runs.

[Alpinord]

^^^^
It'd also require alpine boots.

I would imagine there aren't that many that can get the mileage on both bindings to compare. As a techpin binding newbie, I have been pleasantly surprised how well the IONs do skis....so far....compared to alpine binding, including high-elasticity Pivots and Marker Barons or F10s. This, to the point that I have considered unloaded my powder boards with Look Pivots....wait, what am I thinking? That's just crazy talk.

[galibier_numero_un]

^^^^
It'd also require alpine boots.

I would imagine there aren't that many that can get the mileage on both bindings to compare. As a techpin binding newbie, I have been pleasantly surprised how well the IONs do skis....so far....compared to alpine binding, including high-elasticity Pivots and Marker Barons or F10s. This, to the point that I have considered unloaded my powder boards with Look Pivots....wait, what am I thinking? That's just crazy talk.

Maybe I'm just too old and don't huck enough cliffs (as in any) anymore, but I just don't see the big deal about needing alpine bindings in the resorts when there are bindings like the Ion out there. Heck! I used to ski in Marker Simplex toes and Rotomats (dating myself). I'd far prefer a Dynafiddle/G3/Vipec rig to these any day of the week.

At some point in the maturation of a technology, you reach sufficiency and it (by definition) is good enough.

[edit 4/3/2015]

For the helluvit, I mounted a pair of Salomon Wardens on a pair of Atomic Automatics a couple of weeks ago. With only 4 days on these, I don't notice much skiability difference between them and my Ion mounted Megawatts, but the only real way to tell would be to use the Wardens on a ski I'm familiar with.

It got to the point where I accepted that I'm riding lifts a bit these days, and a dedicated alpine rig ain't such a bad thing - especially since my AT boots are compatible with the Wardens.

There's something that's nagging at me however. I like the concept of really knowing your gear, and skiing my tech bindings inbounds gave me that opportunity. Of course, in the case of my Vertical ST's, knowing meant getting creeped out about unintended release in "bad' (as in 'good') places

Cheers,
Thom

[Alpinord]

True....unless you already have a super fun alpine set up in your possession and would suffer separation anxiety if you got rid of it.

[pureantigravity]

Maybe I'm just too old and don't huck enough cliffs (as in any) anymore, but I just don't see the big deal about needing alpine bindings in the resorts when there are bindings like the Ion out there. Heck! I used to ski in Marker Simplex toes and Rotomats (dating myself). I'd far prefer a Dynafiddle/G3/Vipec rig to these any day of the week.

At some point in the maturation of a technology, you reach sufficiency and it (by definition) is good enough.

Cheers,
Thom

I can only speak from experience from skiing tech bindings (G3 Onyx) inbounds ... and later a pair of F12s.

One of my boots steel inserts got warped\ruined. A heel pin pIastic spacer got cracked. The retractable brake arms got bent. A binding screw pulled out. Um, err, there was something else but I can't remember anymore.

Oh, and then there was the ski shop tech that broke his tib\fib when he landed to flat on the ski hill and rotated -- which the toes on tech bindings do not. Fritschi being the exception there.

They are not made for on-piste skiing. Can, yes. But they are made for backcountry use and travel.

If you are just too old, save your bones. Ions are not going to offer multidirectional safe toe release. And any touring boot is not going to be as nice a ride as your average on-piste boot.

Hitting a hard groomed run on any tech binding is likely to cause dental work to start coming loose.

But then, some people telemark. I'll never understand that either

[galibier_numero_un]

Your war stories are scaring me gravity

No doubt, a binding designed without weight constraints and other touring considerations can focus on the retention/elasticity/release part of the equation to optimize these parameters more effectively. It (an Alpine resort binding) is clearly superior. I don't think anyone would argue this.

The question again, is one of sufficiency, but even this needs to be taken in the context of a use-case(s). As you noted on-piste skiing can be bone jarring if you're charging on the groomers - something I rarely do unless I need to avoid snowboarders . If the snow is hard, then I'm in the woods - even if that means rolling terrain and no turns earned that day.

No arguments either on the durability factor of tech bindings, and the young charger, or the guy hucking 20-50 foot cliffs should get a more robust setup designed for this level of abuse.

Let's look at this another way. What binding would you choose for the backcountry, when an injury means that there's no ski patrol to evacuate you? What's your comfort level? Would you ski a tech binding in this context?

I've yet to have someone explain to me why two theoretically perfect bindings (elasticity, friction, retention, etc.) - one with rotational release at the toe, and the other at the heel - would have differing safety in the real world practice. If someone is put in a compromising position on a hill, the force vectors aren't going to look like a setup on a test bench.

If this were not the case (in our litigious society), then the Spademan binding (or an evolution thereof) would have captured the market. After all, where else should the binding be sensing the stress on your Tibia but in a plane that's concentric with ... the Tibia?

Cheers,
Thom

[powtario]

Beast 14 weight penalty isn't actually all that much, just drink an extra cup of coffee in the morning so you take a bigger shit.

Radical 2.0 is also out now/soonish and might be a compromise over the Ion.

Inserts/plates for alpine and tech and swap accordingly, a set do sth2's (are they the adjustable afd's?) can likely be had for a song from any shop in California.

[skimaxpower]

What binding would you choose for the backcountry, when an injury means that there's no ski patrol to evacuate you? What's your comfort level? Would you ski a tech binding in this context?

In a high-consequence backcountry no-fall situation, the binding is the least of my worries. My skiing would be slow, steady, and boring.

Part of the fun of the resort is the ability to test limits. I prefer that the outer limits are bound by my courage and my talent, rather than my gear.

I've tested my dynafits in the resort before, with largely good results. I've also tested my dynafits on the binding bench test and was not impressed. For the forseeable future, tech bindings will continue to tour better. Alpine bindings will continue to offer better durabilty and release more reliably. IMHO we do not yet have a binding that does it all.

[Knut]

MHO we do not yet have a binding that does it all.

Sometimes I ask myself, whether the indusry is truly interested in making that binding at all...

[neck beard]

I've recently noticed that the Vipec is very sensitive to having any ice in the toe tech inserts. Skis refusing to stay on, even with the toes locked.