Avalanche Foglietta - video and self-analysis

[1wsguy]

The video is now "private".

[Gorilla]

Listened to the thing Henry did. Seems to have been a group with a guide and full cert instructor at the back. So two professionals qualified to lead the route. Henry stressed two things. First, local obs up the road in the Espace Killy suggested only smaller releases. Second, they felt that this was consistent with the rating of 3 so local obs seemed to back up the forecast.

Henry also suggested that the island of safety they used is larger than is apparent from the vid and their use of it is consistent with his read of the conditions: i.e. localised skier trigger slabs are possible but likely no more than that.

Re pits. In hundreds of days skiing off piste in Europe, I have never seen anyone dig a pit outside of an avalanche course. Similarly, I have never dug one myself other than a quick and dirty to confirm something I already strongly suspected. I am not sure what location you would pick for a pit to gauge stability in that location.

Curious as to what the reduction method calculation for that slope would have been, not having seen the bulletin. I strongly suspect the score would have been 1. Strikes me that you could judge the scoring in two ways - either you could score for the 30 degree slope they skied. Or you could take the risk of triggering the steeper part of the slope and score yourself for a steeper slope. The latter seems more prudent and that's probably the main thing I am taking away from this. That and your own observations and reading of the forecast may periodically turn out to be bollocks.

Other than that, there but for the grace of God etc. I hope all are out of hospital no and are not too badly shaken. I am not really looking forward to the handful of days I have this season. It is clearly going to be tricky.

[PNWbrit]

Re pits. In hundreds of days skiing off piste in Europe, I have never seen anyone dig a pit outside of an avalanche course. Similarly, I have never dug one myself other than a quick and dirty to confirm something I already strongly suspected. I am not sure what location you would pick for a pit to gauge stability in that location.

Euro vs US pit/forecast reliance would be an interesting slide zone thread in it's own right.

[spook]

weird. I don't know shit but I would never pick a literal island in the middle of the slide zone. you're basically saying that you know how big a potential slide will be and that it will not eat your island.

[neck beard]

local obs up the road in the Espace Killy suggested only smaller releases. Second, they felt that this was consistent with the rating of 3 so local obs seemed to back up the forecast.

That is a valid exercise. However using the absence of recent significant avalanche activity to verify if local danger is consistent with the forecast regional rating is unreliable and not really recommended when you have a persistent weak layer. With PWL's, the absence of signs of instability is not an indicator or stability. And if you get it wrong, the consequences can be much larger, as seen in that video.

If you have a snowpack capable of producing an avalanche like that, then you are entrenched in shut-down mode: skiing small or very low angle slopes. The presence of a weak layer like that should be no mystery.

[soleofskiing]

Does anyone have a link to the avy bulletin for that day? I'm curious to see whether they called this a Persistent Weak Layer or a new wind slab...

[Arno]

Euro vs US pit/forecast reliance would be an interesting slide zone thread in it's own right.

Indeed! Hadn't known that this was a guided group. My impression is that guides working in their local area rarely dig pits (when they are out with clients anyway) because they have actually watched the snowpack develop over the season and they spend a lot of time chatting with their guide buddies about current conditions.

I have heard it said in Euroland that if you are relying on a pit (rather than all the other info you have been gathering) to decide whether or not to go, you shouldn't go.

[Gorilla]

I think you need to be asking yourself why your pit is or ia not adding to the knowledge you should have gained from the bulletin. I understand things are different in the US. I am told that they are more granular than the US equivalent and cover a smaller area.

The second thing is the difficulty of obtaining a representative sample of the problem slope. There are two angles her. First heterogeneity - I would expect you would have to dig quite a few pits on that St F slope to get a good read on how dodgy it was. Second, the difficulty of digging in a suitably representative location at all.

That being the case I would rather feed data into the Munter formula, trust the bulletin and cross my fingers.

So while I learned to do a full profile, which was a reallt useful exercise, and can do a rutschblock etc, my instructors taught those tk show how snow works rather than in the expectation I would use them.

Of course my ski bumming days are over, I am a fat desk jockey and am probably no longer current but that's a reasonable reflection of practice only a few years ago.

[UPGRAYEDD_2505]

Some places in the US are like Europe with lots of people out and about, lots of available info, a good, accurate, comprehensive bulletin/forecast, etc. (like the Wasatch). Other places in the US are in the middle of nowhere with only about 5 people touring regularly, with no available info, and a limited or nonexistent bulletin. Gotta know how to be your own forecaster if you want to ride in those places. Digging pits is certainly part of that equation if you want to ride steep stuff. (I'm sure there are places like this in Europe as well).

[klar]

Depending on where exactly you are the bulletins in Europe can be very good and provide very detailed info regarding snow pack and local variations. I do dig pits with some regularity just out of curiosity and have never really found something I wasn't expecting to find from reading the bulletin, this is for Tyrol. The people who make the bulletins dig a lot of pits to come up with their ratings. I think the idea here is that the bulletins are good enough that most people will fair better with Munter or StopOrGo or one of those methods (based on the danger rating) than with having to dig and interpret their own snow pits, so education largely focusses on those strategies. There is a nice tool here that shows the pits by the forecasters, as well as any someone else does and enters. You can enter your own data as well. http://www.lawis.at/profile/

[splat]

One guy dug out two buried survivors 1 km downslope?
Bet he's getting a lot of invites to tour.

[Shadam]

jeez splat you don't know euro-trash eh?

that just makes him more appealling to the crazies !!!

I bet he charges more to go for a ride in a slide ...

farkin good thing they don't have turbo snowmobiles eh?

[splat]

I'm just sayin' the dude's a stud for the great rescue job.

Are you sayin' you want to start a backwoods ratbagger bc turbo sledder boarder fad in the Alps?
You'll need plaid flannel shirts. And those hats that go over your ears.

[pureantigravity]

Do all the guests read the detailed avy bulletins or know the snowpack history? Or is that knowledge all encapsulated within the guide?
How much do guests participate in the decision to ski a face?

Would digging a pit encourage a better shared knowledge and balanced decision making?

Just blue-skying here ... unwavering trust in a guide/heli-operation is what has led some groups into trouble.

[PNWbrit]

Do all the guests read the detailed avy bulletins or know the snowpack history? Or is that knowledge all encapsulated within the guide?
How much do guests participate in the decision to ski a face?

Would digging a pit encourage a better shared knowledge and balanced decision making?

Just blue-skying here ... unwavering trust in a guide/heli-operation is what has led some groups into trouble.

It depends?

Clients may know absolutely nothing and be doing this as once in their lifetime or be as knowledgeable or nearly so as the guide.

See above earlier comments about euro pit digging. I'd say that it'd be quite unusual for a guide to dig a pit on that slope in Europe.

And that perhaps Some guides would actually not even want to dig a pit with some clients, on some trips and that some clients would expect that the guide wouldn't need to do so in order to guide them safely.

And as to your last point.... was it the Wallowa slide last year that perhaps clients not following instruction from guides possibly might have caused the problem? Apologies if I've mixed it up with another accident.

[philippeR]

I'm just sayin' the dude's a stud for the great rescue job.

Are you sayin' you want to start a backwoods ratbagger bc turbo sledder boarder fad in the Alps?
You'll need plaid flannel shirts. And those hats that go over your ears.

I think I remember from the YouTube text that the dude is a girl. And was the most seriously injured. But I may be wrong.

And, yes, no one dig pits in France. Of course, I don't do really remote ski tours or ski seriously challenging off piste terrain, so, that's just my limited experience.

[SkyIsland]

.... was it the Wallowa slide last year that perhaps clients not following instruction from guides possibly might have caused the problem?...

Emphasis on the might have, but yes (possibly), though there were several other factors in place ranging from the decision to not use safe travel protocol, to the terrain trap and trees, that led to that result.