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Thread: Copper Mountain Bootpacking 2014
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12-08-2014, 09:34 PM #1Jacket Cobbler
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Copper Mountain Bootpacking 2014
Last Friday Crew
Union Peak
www.freeridesystems.com
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ok we'll come up with a solution by then makers....
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12-12-2014, 06:58 PM #2
Well shit.
Anyone hurt or was the boot packing going on after the slide?Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season
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12-12-2014, 07:12 PM #3skin track terrorist
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shoulda gone skinnin'
long live the jahrator
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12-16-2014, 10:15 AM #4Jacket Cobbler
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That slide was bomb induced.
Boot packing occured after.
Thought it would be interesting to see how high
consequence inbounds gets prepped. Glad to
be doing it. Good workout too. The post holes
break up big monolithic slabs so that if there is a
release they are small and of less consequence.
Pretty cool to be working side by side with patrolwww.freeridesystems.com
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maggot discount code TGR20
ok we'll come up with a solution by then makers....
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12-16-2014, 03:07 PM #5
compared to the way the Highlands bootpackers do it, looks like you're spread out much to far. Better hike back up and take another lap...
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12-16-2014, 03:41 PM #6Jacket Cobbler
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^ I wondered about that too but I'm just a "foot" soldier.
Perhaps highlands is trying to create a completely compacted base.
I think we are just trying to prevent huge slabs from existing.Last edited by MiCol; 12-16-2014 at 03:52 PM.
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ok we'll come up with a solution by then makers....
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12-16-2014, 03:52 PM #7
^^^ how did you get on the crew? invite? volly? good on yah
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12-16-2014, 06:48 PM #8Jacket Cobbler
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^ volunteer'd
They said this season was to be the test program for how to run for future
years. I think next year will be more publicized. It can be hard work
but there is access to some good pow. And, there are rewards similar
to that of Aspen Highlands after a certain number of days are completed.www.freeridesystems.com
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maggot discount code TGR20
ok we'll come up with a solution by then makers....
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12-16-2014, 08:12 PM #9
Cool. Has this gone on in the past? Will it help get terrain open sooner?
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12-16-2014, 09:42 PM #10Rope->Dope
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^^ If this will open Tucker before mid March, count me in...
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12-16-2014, 10:03 PM #11
Just a random question...did I hear they may put in a lift up Tucker?
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12-16-2014, 11:17 PM #12Rope->Dope
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Yeah, maybe next season. They wanted to build last summer but the rumor was the PCMR legal mess drained their cash...
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12-17-2014, 10:30 AM #13
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12-19-2014, 09:54 AM #14Jacket Cobbler
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I believe it has gone on with paid full time patrollers in the past only. They say it will help open
more terrain sooner. I have seen that with my own eyes in areas like ute overlook, slipknot, looking glass which
start area is kind of near base on storm king. We booted that and then had some big wind events and were
told had we not done it, it would not have snow. So that has been nice. We also put major work into all the start
zones for Resolution bowl and that has been open now to the public for several weeks . I think we have made
a valuable impact and they tell us that which makes us feel like we are doing some good.
Next year I think they will be recruiting for this program more vocally and it is an experience worth participating
in at least one season for sure.
Tucker Lift
I am totally against this. Last year my complaints sent via email to Copper got me in the President's office for a sit down and look at
the total tenure for Copper's USFS permit. Without question there is unbelievably great terrain that he says could open if they
take Tucker away from being a "hike to" area (now: cat to saddle weekends with hike to Taco-Fremont 1, no cat but able to hike west ridge then up tucker week days). It is my opinion that patrollers are already working as hard as possible for the number of people they have on staff. Some of the tenure shown to me is so far from lifts that I don't see how they could get the control work in as easy as Tucker Mtn (which is not easy for them). So, I am extremely skeptical that if they turn Tucker into lift served 15 minutes to tracked out terrain that the skiing public is going to get a better replacement any time soon. I hope I am wrong.
Their complaint is that there may be only 2-3 people a day skiing Tucker during the week days. I can attest to that as I am one of the dedicated that uses this terrain. Sometimes there are more people out there. But it represents less than 2-3% of all the lift served terrain, and I would hope they don't have to spoil it for a net gain of zero for what other ski areas seem to be adding (hike to). Tucker is the 2-3% inbound powder skiing with some work to get there vs. 97% boiler plate packed crap that is the rest of the entire ski area. I guess the executive office may not be happy until that is 100% boiler plate packed crap.
You might say F'it go to the backcountry. That's fine and dandy but risk consequences are much higher and staging those days take considerably more time than hitting Tucker twice with full hike laps of the West Ridge and then being able to go in and back to work at the "office" the rest of the day. As it stands today, I am able to ski that 4-5 weekdays weekly. As others may have the opportunity as well. The great thing about Tucker is that 20-30 people lapping it after hiking the west ridge are still going to leave pow lines for many many days for others. The WE double cat loops do put a dent in it.Last edited by MiCol; 12-19-2014 at 10:16 AM.
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ok we'll come up with a solution by then makers....
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01-05-2015, 06:10 PM #15
I wish loveland would do this, they'd get a lot of volunteers. Maybe they already do and I'm just ignorant.
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01-05-2015, 10:43 PM #16Rope->Dope
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I never loved the Tucker lift idea either, but it's happening either way.
Hopefully the replacement cat terrain is just as fun.
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01-05-2015, 11:01 PM #17
Copper Mountain Bootpacking 2014
I don't like the idea either, but isn't the replacement terrain Jacque Peak? That's always looked good to me.
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01-05-2015, 11:10 PM #18Rope->Dope
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01-05-2015, 11:24 PM #19
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01-06-2015, 12:03 AM #20
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01-06-2015, 12:20 AM #21
Do you remember Super Bowl sliding wall to wall with a single bomb, the day after it had been open to the public to ski, with no significant new snow/wind/loading, last year or the year before? That's one example of MANY events I have witnessed over the past few years. One of the more dramatic events for sure, but far from the only.
I have triggered and personally know several others that have triggered post-control slides large enough to bury and kill a person inbounds at LL, on the Ridge and in other zones.
Sooner or later they will kill someone with their refusal to manage persistent slab problems.
Preventive maintenance earlier in the season, including bootpacking, sidestepping, and bombing would help mitigate (not eliminate) some of this risk. Unfortunately, other than a small amount of packing on portions of the Chair 1 steeps, LL patrol does very little of this. I know a few of the pro patrollers including some of the avalanche mitigation specialists and they are in favor of doing more mitigation earlier than they are currently allowed.
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01-06-2015, 01:02 AM #22
Why don't you write a letter to them? It is a serious allegation to say they refuse to mitigate inbounds terrain which will lead to a fatality, and you are quoting their pro patrol on the issue as well.
I dont agree about Super Bowl.
Last year Super Bowl went wall to wall, but Super Bowl proper was NOT open. I was there everyday during that whole cycle, only the gully/saddle next to it was open beforehand and what came down, did not touch the area that was open.
Super Bowl, for example i imagine will not get boot packed because of what it is, but it could get carpet bombed, then everyone would complain "they ruined the snow".
They don't have the acreage of some, but they have a LONG horseshoe ridgeline with rapidly changing conditions because of the shape (sun). Some things have not opened in 3 years on the North Gates and that is not patrols fault.
I was surprised more was not done earlier this year, but little things like Headwall have come along nicely without carpet bombs and the snow has been great.
3 foot crown yesterday (sunday) in Challenger. Patrol Bowl was messy.
I think it would suck to bomb the shit out of everything when some boot packing or patience would suffice.Terje was right.
"We're all kooks to somebody else." -Shelby Menzel
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01-06-2015, 02:23 AM #23
You can not agree all you want, but you'll still be wrong.
I am talking about the event on March 20, 2013. You are correct that Super Bowl was not open on the day that it slid wall to wall. It was in fact open to the public in the days/weeks preceding the slide. It did in fact slide on an old layer deep within the snowpack with a very large crown. The conditions and snowpack structure that allowed the path to slide with a crown measured in feet existed for a long, long time before the slide occurred. You can go pull up historic Snotel data that shows that the only loading that occurred before the slide was small and incremental - not enough to suddenly cause the instability that caused the slide to occur, nor enough new snow/loading to cause a crown measured in feet. Patrol just put a bomb or ski cut in the right spot - an unsuspecting member of the public in the previous days/weeks could have certainly been the trigger as well.
Post in the Loveland tomorrow thread witnessing the slide: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...54#post3945254
Post in the LL thread, including video, of a mag skiing the exact same area that slid two weeks prior: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...19#post3945319
Two skiers were caught and lucky to not be killed in a hard slab/persistent slab avalanche about two weeks prior elsewhere in the Front Range zone: http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ac...=497&accfm=inv
Less than a month later, a snowboarder was killed in a hard slab avalanche, deep in the snowpack, on Ptarmigan Hill: http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ac...=504&accfm=inv
Two days after that was the notorious Sheep Creek slide. The failure layer here was also deep in the snowpack:
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ac...=505&accfm=inv
All three accidents occurred within one month of the Super Bowl slide, in relatively close proximity to Loveland. Look at the pit profiles of all three accidents. Every one of those slides failed catastrophically on layers deep in the snowpack, with large crowns and wide propagation. Just like Super Bowl did. The snowpack structure that caused the Super Bowl slide existed well before the slide occurred. Loveland patrol could have done things to mitigate (not eliminate) the development of this snowpack structure, but they did not, and IMO, continue not to.
You can also go to the CAIC's Field Reports archive and find numerous observations of triggered slides happening even closer in time to the Super Bowl slide that shared similar characteristics - failing deep within the snowpack, propagating widely, with no signs of instability, triggered remotely or from low in the path (or naturally), on near or above treeline terrain facing N, NE, or E.
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ob...p?obs_id=18911
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ob...p?obs_id=18699
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ob...p?obs_id=18583
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ob...p?obs_id=18536
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ob...p?obs_id=18563
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ob...p?obs_id=18885
Persistent and Deep Persistent Slabs are an unfortunate fact of life in Colorado, especially in the Front Range thanks to our combination of high elevation and consistently heavy winds. There is a shit ton of evidence that LL patrol failed to manage the deep instabilities that led to Super Bowl sliding wall to wall, and I have not seen any evidence that they have adopted any mitigation strategies to improve this.
I am not an expert in avalanche mitigation by any means, but I know just enough to be concerned for my own safety when skiing inbounds there.
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01-06-2015, 11:43 AM #24
I am going to condense your post for you. Deep slab instabilities are unpredictable and often cannot be managed "completely". Look at Bridger Bowl, they require a beacon for body recovery in certain areas, as should Loveland IMO.
To focus blame upon Loveland Patrol shows your lack of proper perspective based on your own professed lack of expertise.
Edit; your post mentions Patrol finding the "right spot"; that is their job. They find the "right" trigger spot in Patrol Bowl, Challenger, Marmot, etc.
A whole swath of terrain on North Gates have not been open for 3 years because of shitty conditions, even with tons of bombs.
I rode all day Sunday in an area I would never touch without control work or traffic. Patrol bowl would be sketch without control work.Last edited by DasBlunt; 01-06-2015 at 05:23 PM.
Terje was right.
"We're all kooks to somebody else." -Shelby Menzel
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01-14-2015, 05:21 PM #25Registered User
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Micol, i appreciate your effort and all others involved in foot packing at Copper.Did my share of foot packing back in the early 90's when i patrolled at my local area here in VT,Sugargush. the last 2 seasons i have had the pleasure of skiing Copper late March early April,the cat and hike out to Tucker was a great expierience for me,last year i had some great skiing out there,no one to be seen on most runs.i thought it was odd how the front side could be rather crowded but the backside were the good skiing was was empty.plan on head back late march again this season to visit and ski with my son who works at Copper.Thanks again for your work so others like myself can enjoy things i can't ski back east
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