Sleeping bags

[angrysasquatch]

On ski traverses, I consistently sleep like shit and have problems with the down bag wetting out towards the end of the traverse. So this year, I am completely open to throwing money at the problem. I'm getting a proper 4-season single wall tent to replace the crappy heavy double wall 3 season tents I've used so far. I had a quality 0f down sleeping bag (http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/xero-550) last year, but I've been putting real thought into replacing it. After two nights of a traverse, in ideal cold high pressure, it was moist and rapidly losing loft. I've got longer traverses on my mind, and with longer duration also comes less certainty on the weather and likely high humidity sooner or later. So I can't keep going on like I have. The problem, I believe is that due to its super lightweight:warmth design on my current bag, the outer shell isn't all that waterproof, certainly a long ways from a gore windbreaker/ event/ etc that is used on heavier, more expensive bags, so any condensation freezes on overnight and soaks in.

Is there something else I should be doing? Just today, I thought maybe putting some DWR spray-on might do something. It is not a membrane material or anything like it on the outside though, so I'm not sure that will even work. Or just bite the bullet and replace it with a new 0f or -20f bag with a proper membrane fabric on the outside, and keep the old bag as a super light 1 night with misery bivy option?

[Shorty_J]

Do you have any concept of if it's wetting from the inside or out?

I ask because if it's from the inside you could just try getting a vapour barrier liner for your bag. I got one made for my sleeping bag by Stephensons Warmlite, though I have honestly not got around to trying it out. Might even be able to lend it to you if it's dims are OK and you could buy it if you like it.

They also sell complete sleeping bag systems.

If it's wetting from the outside due to general humidity in the tent, a single-wall is just going to make that worse, most likely.

http://warmlite.com/vapor-barrier

[sal the salmon]

http://featheredfriends.com/down-sle...s.html?cat=174

[GeezerSteve]

A vapor barrier (VB) sleeping bag liner is essential equipment for multi-day winter trips. Most of the moisture that condenses on your bag outer shell is coming from you, working through the down and condensing on the outer shell, then freezing (if temps are sufficiently cold). You lose loft each night because some moisture remains in the down and some more gets there from the condensation on the shell. A VB liner contains the moisture, keeping the down dry. Try it and you'll have virtually no condensation (except around your mouth from breathing) assuming that you are in a tent. Most modern VB liners are silnylon, so not too expensive. Best to have at least a half zipper. I personally like the FF VB liners which do not twist cuz they snap into loops inside FF bags. One could sew in the loops to a non-FF bag. When using a VB liner you will still get some condensation around your mouth, which is why FF and some other manufacturers use eVent or similar fabrics for the breathing tunnel. ETA: You can also use a bivi bag in combination with the VB liner to protect the bag from condensation falling off the tent walls, although the bivi bag should not be necessary in really cold temps when the condensation freezes on the tent walls. This assumes that you carefully stuff your bag each morning.

ETA2: I've done fine controlling condensation on winter trips with a VB liner in a single-wall tent because, again, the condensation on the bag's outer shell is coming from the inside (except around the mouth). Note that our winter bags are have eVent outer shells, i.e., sorta like having a light bivi bag. Double-wall tents are warmer and you needn't worry as much about brushing the sides, etc.

ETA3: Here is a link to Andrew Skurka VB page. Note his observations re his sleeping bag losing loft before he started using a VB liner.

[rod9301]

Steve, do you think sleeping in goretex pants and jacket will be sufficient like a vb?

[rod9301]

Agree with the comments, moisture probably comes from inside. If you have a bag with a waterproof shell, you wil trap even more moisture inside, making it worse.

Look at the tarptent stratospire. Super light, double wall and wil withstand snow.

Lots of space.

Single wall tents suck, imo.

[GeezerSteve]

GTX pants are an effective semi-VB cuz they don't breathe very well BUT the moisture will escape at your ankles and concentrate the condensation at your foot area. I've had pretty good luck wearing VB socks + semi-VB pants + semi-VB top inside a bag but you run the risk of moisture leaking out between those pieces so IME a VB liner works better.

Stratosphire is a nice 3-season tent but I don't see how that is going to help OP's problem of getting his down wet from inside the bag.

[::: :::]

big steve

don't you end up wet inside the VB sack anyway? (warm, but wet) #thatswhatshesaid
do you then need to change base layers in the morning?
or do you stay somewhat dry enough?

VB-curious...just wondering

[coldandwet]

I had a quality 0f down sleeping bag (http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/xero-550) last year, but I've been putting real thought into replacing it. After two nights of a traverse, in ideal cold high pressure, it was moist and rapidly losing loft. I've got longer traverses on my mind, and with longer duration also comes less certainty on the weather and likely high humidity sooner or later. So I can't keep going on like I have. The problem, I believe is that due to its super lightweight:warmth design on my current bag, the outer shell isn't all that waterproof, certainly a long ways from a gore windbreaker/ event/ etc that is used on heavier, more expensive bags, so any condensation freezes on overnight and soaks in.

I have a Xero 550 that's slightly older and less warm than the model you linked to (the temp limits are 2 degrees higher all round). I don't always find it warm enough to sleep in when the air temp is below -8*C, and condensation from my breath causes quite a startling loss of loft even in just 2 nights. I've demoted it to less cold camps and just picked up a much warmer new bag with a water resistant shell and inner patches for winter use. Even without the condensation problem I'd probably do the same thing.

Getting a down bag with a proper waterproof outer seems a bit crazy though. If the damp is coming from the outside, you may find a lightweight water resistant cover might help (can't recommend any to you, sorry). A synthetic quilt might also help keep it dry, help it dry out and keep you warm, too, if you can find one that isn't too heavy or bulky (I haven't).

[GeezerSteve]

don't you end up wet inside the VB sack anyway? (warm, but wet) #thatswhatshesaid
do you then need to change base layers in the morning?
or do you stay somewhat dry enough?

No, not if you regulate your temperature to be comfy, not sweaty, which on cold nights can usually be done with hood, collar & hat/no-hat. The VB is sometimes a bit damp but not a problem cuz water shakes easily off silnylon. If it's cold I wear my semi-VB top. See Skurka's comments.

+1 to C&W's about a WB breathing tunnel and outershell where your breath vapor condenses. A VB won't help you with that.

[jamesp]

Have you thought about a synthetic fill bag? Yes there are downsides, heavier & more bulky. Synthetic fill will be warm even if its a bit damp. Snow camping is always damp IME, its tough to really keep everything dry.

[angrysasquatch]

Have you thought about a synthetic fill bag? Yes there are downsides, heavier & more bulky. Synthetic fill will be warm even if its a bit damp. Snow camping is always damp IME, its tough to really keep everything dry.

Yeah, hadn't before but bloody hell, it's only a couple % heavier than an equivalent temp down with wp/b outer shell, and you aren't totally boned when it gets wet.. Oh, and less than half the price. I can literally buy both a -15f and -30f MHW syn bag for the price of a -20f MHW bag with wp/b shell. Seems the only downside is maybe bulk. Any other thoughts on using down only for 1-2 night ventures, and synthetic for everything else? Eager to avoid a VB bag if possible.

[jamesp]

I have integral designs bags, made in cowtown (not sure if they are still), they've been great.

I sweat a bunch, no matter what the converted say, the idea of sleeping in a plastic bag (VB) makes my skin crawl, just ain't going to happen. Synthetic fill bags are my compromise, works for me.

Edit: watch some of the lighter MHW syn bags only have a half zip, which is easy to miss in the advertising. G/f made that mistake & had to exchange it. Half zip may or may not matter to you (?).

[kootenayskier]

For a only a couple of nights out, a down bag shouldn't wet out from the inside. But if you don't have drying opportunities, after a week of winter camping a synthetic bag is going to end up as much of a wet slug (albeit slightly warmer) as a down bag. Merino underwear inside a VB isn't so bad.

[neufox47]

VB no question. It'll be wayyyy better

[GeezerSteve]

after a week of winter camping a synthetic bag is going to end up as much of a wet slug (albeit slightly warmer) as a down bag.

QFT. 30 years ago I did a week-long trip in a synthetic winter bag. It started out at 5 lbs., was 10+ pounds and practicably worthless when I packed it out. Synthetic bags also SUCK for for winter use for lots of other reasons, e.g., they are stupidly bulky and they lose loft with each stuff cycle; by contrast a properly maintained down bag will sustain virtually all of its loft for 20 years of frequent use. Down is the only way to go for winter camping, and multi-day trips require a VB liner if you want to sustain loft. That's reality. Deal with it.

its tough to really keep everything dry.

Nah. It's easy to keep things dry if you use VBs liners for sleeping bags and a mix of VB and semi-VB garments. With properly managed VBs on a winter trip you'll get, at most, a wee bit of moisture next to your skin, but everything else will be dry. Those doing the VB = boogie man thing quite obviously have not tried a VB sleeping bag liner or are too stupid to manage temps. They are not clammy if you properly control your temperature, which is not difficult. I've been advocating VBs and semi-VBs on this forum for several years, and maybe you're getting weary of it. If so, I've provided another voice via my link to Andrew Skurka's discussion about VB liners for sleeping bags and garments. If anybody is an expert on multi-day winter travel, it's Skurka. His comments re VBs are spot on.

[sal the salmon]

any1 used a dridown bag yet?

[Snorkel]

OP, What temps are you talking about? If you sleep warm in what you have, take Big Steve's advice and just try the VBL and add a bivy sack when really cold or sloppy. +1000 on the VBL when is its below 15 deg F. I sleep in my wool gitch and don't feel clammy or slimy when I wake. The plus is it seems to add a few degrees to my temperature range too. Cheap (relatively), and then you'll know if you need to drop $$$ on a new bag.

Love single wall tents too. Again, got to be more careful, but damn, my three man tent kit weight less than 2 1/2 pounds.
The single wall hate comes from not effectively managing interior ice and moisture.

As for bag fabric, mine is 10 year old dryloft and great for when you slide up against the tent wall or roll off your pad or forget your bivy sack. Lots of choices for uber-breathable tech shell fabrics these days. Dridown might be good for this too. Not really necessary, but certainly gives you leeway with the inevitable screw-up or accident. Western Mountaineering fanboi here. Lots of nights in a super puma, some in a bison, and I now use a dakota (No deep winter trips anymore). If you're going to go for a warmer bag or tech shell, spend the $$$ and don't look back