Building Code Issues - Clearance around Stove - Little Help?

[riser4]

Overzealous home inspector no doubt. Those vultures do everything in their power to frighten prospective buyers and to create a negotiating advantage for the buyer's agent. I'd politely tell them to go and get fucked. But that's just me...

I wish the home inspector had done more to frighten me. I never should have purchased this shit heap. Sure we got a few concessions. However, that doesn't make up for what I'm stuck with now. As far as I am concerned the inspector's job is to make the sale go through at all costs so that the Realtor's still get paid for doing next to nothing. :evil:

[Fejj]

2yr old home and no warranty regarding a building code fuck-up during construction?

I have yet to dive deep into this option. The 2 year "bumper to bumper" coverage is expired as it started at lock-up as opposed to when we took posession.

Sounds like a decent plan...and minimizes the threat of doing shitty work for the new owners...


Any backup offers to leverage against your buyer?

No backup offers. I'm really looking to put a number to the fix, lower the price and move on. the $500 a few of you are throwing around is sounding like a good option.

Where I live, there's no building code, but I wanted a commercial range in my kitchen and I did everything with insulated backerboard covered with stamped tin. Looks pretty sharp in my kitchen. That's the backsplash and over the stove (not cabinets, but same difference).

Got any pictures?

The asbestos board being shown as a fix shows how old this code is. The gas fitter should be stabbed in the neck for bringing it up. Inspector would likely not have found something so obscure.
The funny thing is if the cabinets would catch fire at 17" they would most certainly go up in flames at 18".
The trouble with #3 is how the was the Corian attached? The granite fab co. I use epoxies the counter in place and it would be difficult to remove, if it was even possible. I would guess the corian installers took advantage of the full sheet of ply and "glued" it down well.
When I install uppers I screw the boxes together so they might come out without a lot of trouble.
The easiest way to fix it might be new corian with a raised back to fill the space.

Good luck

Researching it more and taking a closer look makes me think that removing it presents a high risk of destroying things and making the fix mucho $$$. I am kind of upset that it was brought up and has become the only sticking point in the deal, but it looks like I've got to come to some reasonable resolution with the buyers as they are telling me they can't get insurance unless the issue is solved. I obviously have insurance, but I didn't go telling my insurer that the home violates code.

To me a building inspector is the guy in the town or city building dept who can pass or reject construction based on what he sees, which is different from a guy who gets hired to see if a house that is being purchased has any issues ... I'm not clear on which guy is this?

the guy who passes the new construction is god period so you do what he sez or no occupancy permit, but if this is just the guy who does an inspection on a purchase the house already has the occupancy permit so its you who either sez ya or nay which depends on how bad you want to sell

This is the city building inspector. The house has an occupancy permit, that was signed by the same city inspector. When he issued it, there were no appliances installed. He is sounding a bit inexperieced and deferring to the BCSA gas inspector, who is suggesting that the upper cabinets be raised.

Are you in a sellers market ? If you have a listing agent tell them to write as is on th stove or wait to sell the house for another buyer. Funny how creative and compelling agents can get when they stand to delay a sale. They don't get paid until the house closes so tell your guy to earn his ransom. I wouldn't fix shit, worst case scenario if you need to close give a small reduction and have your real estate agent give a reach around. There isn't a house in America that doesn't have a bunch of things not up to code if you look close enough.

More of a buyers market. No agents are involved. I'm tempted to not do anything, but the buyers are being very willing to work with us. I'm trying to keep it to a small reduction in price as opposed to say the thousands that it would cost to replace the counters.

Around here lenders are getting very picky. The bank and the insurance company will both see that inspection report and most likely will not lend or insure on the house, regardless of what the buyers agree to.

This is completely driven by the buyers insurer. They have disclosed the issue and now the insurer needs to have a compliant installation or no coverage, and therefore no sale. They are willing to accept the local inspectors sign off on whatever solution we come up with.

Looking closely at the cabinets today, I"m thinking about charging into things and raising them up the required inch. Mostly because this is something that I think I can so myself in a day or less. Dealing with the countertops requires skills I don't have. I'm not convinced that the inspector will be satisfied with any sort of fire barrier. They are god in this case as mentioned.

[mcsquared]

If you insist on bending to their unreasonable demands, there is probably a bit of extra material at the top of the cabinet that you could cut off without screwing up the integrity of the cabinet. Maybe not a full inch but there might be 3/4" and you could take out the rest from the bottom but then you gotta deal with that unfinished and visible edge.

[snoqpass]

If you insist on bending to their unreasonable demands, there is probably a bit of extra material at the top of the cabinet that you could cut off without screwing up the integrity of the cabinet. Maybe not a full inch but there might be 3/4" and you could take out the rest from the bottom but then you gotta deal with that unfinished and visible edge.

That's what edge banding is for

[skiballs]

A sheet of copper, some snips and a little imagination, might work. OP, there are plenty of mags that are or have done kitchen design. Post up a pick and I bet some dentist will come up with a cheap solution.

[schuss]

If at all possible, don't setup the fix yourself. Get some quotes and give the buyers a portion of that. They'll then proceed to pocket it and ignore it.

[fatnslow]

I would speak directly to the supervisor and ask for a real world solution they can live with and sign off. Figure out the cost and try to negotiate with buyer. I think not having agents actually makes things easier and much faster resolution . So this is a for sale by owner WITHOUT buyer representation from a real estate agent ? If the buyer wants the house and you want to move the house have a max dollar amount that you are willing to reduce and start well below that as your initial offer toward repair. Sounds like you will be tagged for the code I fraction and will make the sale not possible withour repair at this point. Again, have a honest conversation with the city inspector and work toward resolution. I have never heard of a city inspector coming on site for a real estate transaction in my area so what do I know.

[brice618]

Raising the uppers will probably be the most painless solution. Put up a photo of the cabinets and I can probably tell just how big a pain it will be. Inside near the top of the cabinets, outside with one looking at the fridge condition and from the side if possible.

[DBdude]

I wish the home inspector had done more to frighten me. I never should have purchased this shit heap. Sure we got a few concessions. However, that doesn't make up for what I'm stuck with now. As far as I am concerned the inspector's job is to make the sale go through at all costs so that the Realtor's still get paid for doing next to nothing. :evil:

you don't need a home inspector to tell if a house is well made. when I was looking to buy, we would walk in and just walk out (sloping floors, shitty windows, additions that are falling apart, etc) the shit holes you see in Vermont are unbelievable

oh wait, old homes have soul and charm...

[Fejj]

Thanks everyone for the input so far. Here are some photos. I think the only real snag is the fridge surround - but I'm no carpenter.

[Fejj]

I would speak directly to the supervisor and ask for a real world solution they can live with and sign off. Figure out the cost and try to negotiate with buyer. I think not having agents actually makes things easier and much faster resolution . So this is a for sale by owner WITHOUT buyer representation from a real estate agent ? If the buyer wants the house and you want to move the house have a max dollar amount that you are willing to reduce and start well below that as your initial offer toward repair. Sounds like you will be tagged for the code I fraction and will make the sale not possible withour repair at this point. Again, have a honest conversation with the city inspector and work toward resolution. I have never heard of a city inspector coming on site for a real estate transaction in my area so what do I know.

Thanks for this. I'm going to try approaching the city inspector again before going full bore with another solution. And yes, FSBO without a buyer's agent. They knocked on our door.

[::: :::]

wow, i assumed up front you meant a home inspector (def odd to have a city inspector invited to a house sale inspection)
have that conversation with the city inspector, but i suspect, if he's on the record with this, that it will be hard for him to back away

still think counter solution is most effective (esp since that's how this all started)...if you can't get the buyer to accept a cash discount towards repair

the way the counter is above the cooking plates already, i'm surprised you haven't had heat issues with the corian at the edges there...

good luck with the resolution!

[char]

Clearly the answer here is to sue the city inspector for failure to perform his job.

Also, if you removed the grate, and measure from the top of the burner (which seems to be the clearance that is required) what is the clearance measurement? They appear to be 3/4 inch below the countertop already. That first photo you posted from the codebook is deceiving because it appears to show the surface of the countertop being the point from which you measure, but code states to measure from the level surface of the burner.

Also, does that measurement have to be taken perpendicular to the burner or can it be taken at an angle between the combustible surface and the burner?

My reading of your code is that the clearance is to the burner not to any other part of the cooking surface. It's to the heat source, which is clearly the intent of the code.

[snoqpass]

After looking at the pictures I'd first ask for a variance, trying to get the extra inch isn't going to be worth the money

[digitaldeath]

Bribe inspector, duh.

[jamesp]

how the fk did the building inspector get involved? & why is the dumbass now saying its not compliant when he signed it off before?

Hopefully you can measure from the burner not the grate top & be good (?). Man what a pain in the ass.

[fatnslow]

Did you have current counter in the house when you have compliance to buy/move in from said inspector ? Will your buyer be able to get insurance IF a exception is granted ? You have two issues potentially. One the city and the insurability unless they find a different carrier and keep their mouth shut.

[XXX-er]

yeah right from the git go the whole story doesn't add up

[mcsquared]

From the pictures, the inspector is insane. That looks more compliant than most other homes i have seen. Is the issue the distance between the burners and the hood? Or the distance between the burners and the cabinets on each side?

Something isn't adding up here. I would just pull the cabinets from the wall, have the inspector come and sign off and then put them back up.

[Fejj]

the way the counter is above the cooking plates already, i'm surprised you haven't had heat issues with the corian at the edges there...

good luck with the resolution!

I lowered the stove recently. Normal run mode was to have things all flush with the counters. I interpreted the code exactly the same as char does and thought that I could convince the inspector to see things my way. So far I haven't, but I'm working on it. I've monitored the counter edge temp recently when cooking since this all came up (with it below the tops) and never has it even been too hot to put my fingers on.

Clearly the answer here is to sue the city inspector for failure to perform his job.

Also, if you removed the grate, and measure from the top of the burner (which seems to be the clearance that is required) what is the clearance measurement? They appear to be 3/4 inch below the countertop already. That first photo you posted from the codebook is deceiving because it appears to show the surface of the countertop being the point from which you measure, but code states to measure from the level surface of the burner.

Also, does that measurement have to be taken perpendicular to the burner or can it be taken at an angle between the combustible surface and the burner?

My reading of your code is that the clearance is to the burner not to any other part of the cooking surface. It's to the heat source, which is clearly the intent of the code.

Distance from burners to bottom of cabinets is about 455mm. Now to the authority having juristiction it seems that burners below counter edge = no go. I agree with your interpretation.

From the pictures, the inspector is insane. That looks more compliant than most other homes i have seen. Is the issue the distance between the burners and the hood? Or the distance between the burners and the cabinets on each side?

Something isn't adding up here. I would just pull the cabinets from the wall, have the inspector come and sign off and then put them back up.

Issue is the distance to the adjacent cabinets, not the one above the stove.

For those noting that things don't add up, here's the background: House was substantially completed in ~2011 by a developer, but there was not an occupancy permit issued. Main issue was the the stairs up to the front door weren't completed, so a person exiting the front door was faced with a 10 ft drop. Sometime in 2012 developer went tits up and left town and the bank repossessed the house. House sat on the market for a year at too high an asking price. I made an offer in 2013 that was conditional on the occupancy permit being obtained. Another contractor finished the items and occupancy permit was issued by the city in Sept 2013. When it was issued, no appliances were installed. I took possession Oct 2013 and proceeded to purchase appliances. When I asked a local gasfitter to connect the stove, he refused stating that the install wouldn't meet code. I decided that the risk to my family was minimal and connected the stove myself. We've lived there for a year now with zero issues.

Circumstances have changes and we are now selling the house. These buyers happened to have viewed the house in the time is was listed and liked it, but the timing wasn't right. This fall they got wind that it might be available and knocked on the door. They had a concern about some of the gas piping in the mechanical room and called a local gasfitter for advice. This was the same guy that refused to install the stove, and he advised them of that.

They decided that this wasn't ok with them and contacted their insurance company, who told them that they need to make things compliant or get the approval of the city inspector. This is how the city inspector is involved.

I've got a message in to the inspector and I'm going to have one more go with him before I tear apart the kitchen. the whole thing is ridiculous and I want to try and have a real conversation instead of things being so black and white. I'm pretty sure we're not going to get there, though.

Thanks again for all the replies.

[XXX-er]

ok that makes sense

just a wild ass shot in the dark, any chance of instaling a different stove maybe a smooth top electric if there is a plug ... just to get the certificate

[fatnslow]

You are fucked on resolution with the inspector, most likely looking at a minor kitchen remodel to be able to sell this thing to the same buyer who knows the past history on this house. If I was the buyer I would leverage this info to my advantage to negotiate. If you want to sell this thing as a kitchen with gas stove you need to repair since this is most likely in the "system" as a house with infractions. You have two choices here. 1. Replace the counters including your island and drop height by removing the extra height or 2. Raise all upper cabinets to meet code. Both these will require you to do some magic on the back splash to make things look cohesive. As XXXer states cheapest solution might be a electric stove if the buyer is willing to accept the solution and it meets code. Go buy a shitty used electric stove for $100 and give your buyer a healthy discount so they can buy a new kick ass "induction" stove. Just tell them gas is so"6 year ago"! I myself have done a ton of shit like this at my houses but realize that anytime that there is potential for a inspector looking at things that have not been "permitted" you are rolling dice so I feel you pain. Real world some times does not equal first world rules.

[RootSkier]

Jesus fucking christ.

1. In what universe do you need your house to meet every possible code to get insurance? Definitely not this one. Fuck the buyers, they are liars (this is the #2 rule of real estate, BTW).

2. Failing that, cut (or unscrew and then cut 1" off) the fucking feet off the stove. Problem = solved.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Isn't Canada sweet! Oh wait...eh...only sometimes. Admittedly, my experience is south of the border but something isn't right. You say you got the C/O. Did you ever get your final inspection? If you did, what jurisdiction does the inspector has.

I'm not even sure what the code is for this. Uppers always go at 54" otherwise all types of stuff doesn't work like full height pantries etc. What is the UL listing for the clearances? If the lower the range will the inspector pass you?

I can tell you that any of the proposed fixes will be pretty expensive.

[XXX-er]

How many of you had your ADHD ebb long enough to read post # 46?

Its a VERY unique situation which has nothing to do with being in Canada, what it underlines is that if things don't get done right which started with the developer who ducked his responsibility by leaving town, sooner or later it will bite you in the ass

so it costs you $$$ but how much did you save buying a distressed sale, look at it from that POV and maybe ... your asshole won't hurt as much?