Suspension Wizards - Looking for some RockShox info

[radam]

With winter approaching, I'm starting to enter into the yearly service/upgrade/replace dilemma. I don't mind buying stuff lightly used so occasionally replacing something actually makes more sense that sending it out for an overhaul but I'm also getting more comfortable working on stuff myself so if the service or upgrade is doable at home, that may win out as well.

Here's my setup:
2009 Giant Reign
Fork: 150mm Revelation RLT Ti Dual Air w/ Blackbox Motion Control damper and Enduro seals. 15mm axle, straight 1 1/8 Steerer (Bought as a new takeoff from Jenson)
Shock: Monarch RT 7.875 x 2.0 M M3 Tune (bought used, came off a 2011 or 2012 Reign)

I'm fairly light at 160 lbs and try to ride fairly light as well. My typical ride is rolling up and down but littered with roots, rocks, techy maneuvers, etc. I think the stiffness of the Rev is fine for my needs though I can't imagine I wouldn't enjoy one of the newer, stiffer chassis out there. The main problems I'm hoping to solve I think come down to setup and damping.

In the past I've really enjoyed Dual Air offerings from Rockshox but with more time on this one, I can see why they've moved towards Solo Air. While not a big air leak by any means, I do notice air either migrating between the positive and negative chambers or just slowly leaking (like a 5 psi/month sort of deal). As this happens the fork's performance seems to change noticeably. I'll go from things feeling dialed and perfect one ride to a harsh, spiky mess a week or two later. Not great. I've always had trouble getting the motion control to work the way I want it, finding it real difficult to build a bit of compression damping to cut down on break dive without seriously hindering the small bump compliance. The enduro seals helped a bit if only by increasing the small bump performance across the board but it seems like while I can find some compression/floodgate combos that allow my to push the fork a little harder through the roughest of the rough, I'll be damned if tuning out brake dive remains near impossible. Maybe that's not the most important thing, but it's something that's always bothered me.

Would swapping the Blackbox Ti damper for an RCT3 damper do anything to help or is that a road not worth going down? If the stiffness of a Pike would be overkill, would sending the fork off to Suspension Experts or Push be beneficial? Are there custom mods I can do myself? I thought I had read something about a "mid-valve upgrade" somewhere but information is scarce and I don't think I fully understand if it can be done and what the actual benefits are.

With the rear shock, the overall feel is decent but a little... wooden? I can adjust rebound and floodgate threshold. The rebound adjustment seems like a pretty narrow range and can go from feeling to fast to too slow without me actually making adjustment. Kind of like I get bounced around too much and then as the repeated hits come I just get lower and lower in the travel. Or sometimes it'll feel perfect. Can't figure it out. I'll use all of my travel on one ride, not change anything and only use half on the next. The floodgate adjust works but even at full threshold is doesn't feel like that much of a lockout (even though I know it's not designed to be) and wide open it still feels a little firm. Small bump performance is generally wanting.

I'm not too inclined to service the shock because the time and cost of doing it myself or sending it out just doesn't feel worth it. So I guess my question is, what upgrade should I look for? Are the newer Monarchs with 'Rapid Recovery' enough of an improvement? Will an RT3 do anything to really fix my issues? Or should I go whole hog and get a Monarch Plus RC3 Debonair? (Or is that a no-no when I'm pedaling all the time)

So. What's my next move?

[JeffreyJim]

You are overthinking it.

Here is what I'd do to the fork - fully rebuild the thing. New seals in the air chamber(s), new oil all the way around. Motion Control isn't the best offering RS had but it sounds like the fork works great until it loses air out of the negative spring right? There is some "tuning" you can do yourself but again, it sounds like you like it more or less. Brake dive is tough to actually tune without making the ride harsh. When I'm racing my setup is often pretty unpleasant to get the bike as neutral and fast as possible... Small bump is overrated.

So just do a clean rebuild and go from there. The Pike *is* more than likely the right fork for that bike. So worse comes to worse, sell it and snag a Pike on eBay or similar for $600

As far as the rear shock... if you are buying a new one go for the big daddy RC3. Hands down the best trail shock on the market (just get the right tune).

[radam]

Oh I am definitely overthinking it.

A Pike is tempting for sure. But so is having $500 to spend on other things.

[JeffreyJim]

Oh I am definitely overthinking it.

A Pike is tempting for sure. But so is having $500 to spend on other things.

I can promise you nothing will make the bike work as well as moving to the Pike. Besides a frame (or tires), nothing will impact the overall ride like the fork...

At least if you put $500 into that part you will *really* see a difference. The rest? Not so much...

[BushwackerinPA]

having had various 32 stanchion RS with Motion control and even black box motion control, just get a Pike. The stiffeness is appreciated everywhere and you can have small bump compliance and mid stroke support from it. I have seen a couple on the north east bike classified for less than 600 dollars for 26 inch wheels.

[creaky fossil]

on Monday I saw new 26 Pikes going for something like 635 USD on one of the euro web retailers, either chain reaction or that big german site whose name I don't recall, both fixed travel and adjustable travel / dual position models at that price

[radam]

Alright so if a new fork is the smartest move, how does the Pike's competition stack up? Is there something else that's considerably better than the Revelation but maybe a little less spendy than the Pike?

Also, JefferyJim, you say that tires are the only other thing that'll impact that ride as much. If I like my tires (Bontrager XR4s), would moving to a wider rim be a smart move? Right now I'm running 2.35s on a 19mm internal width rim, which definitely feels like a compromise. I was thinking of rebuilding my wheels with Spank Oozy Trail rims, with a 25mm internal width. Worth it? Or is that just an incremental improvement if I already have a tire I like?

[forty]

what i would do...
vengeance hlr air
monarch rebuild + air shims + more comp + less psi + less rebound or a monarch plus used
possibly some offset shock bushings to keep geo in check depending on fork a-c choice

imo even at full snuff the rev isnt up to what the frame can offer, as far as pike goes, use its hype to score a deal on one of the other rad forks out there, vengeance coil is treating me very well so thats my go to, but manitou and others are making great forks still under the radar right now

the rear end being "wooden" and inconsistent to me sounds like air in the damping and compensation with too much psi and rebound to try to tame things
but thats purely a guess over the interwebz

if you want some beefier meat throw some 2.5's on, people have run them on narrow rims for years, the difference with a 25mm rim isnt night/day, i wouldnt bother relacing rims unless you have baller hubs, so imo keep an eye for a wheelset deal over winter but dont stress it for tire choice

[nickwm21]

Alright so if a new fork is the smartest move, how does the Pike's competition stack up? Is there something else that's considerably better than the Revelation but maybe a little less spendy than the Pike?

I bought an oem vengeance RC for $400 during xfusions black Friday sale last year. Watch their social media this holiday season for deals.



sent from the future using my mind powers

[creaky fossil]

imo even at full snuff the rev isnt up to what the frame can offer, as far as pike goes, use its hype to score a deal on one of the other rad forks out there, vengeance coil is treating me very well so thats my go to, but manitou and others are making great forks still under the radar right now

my 26 = 2011 5 Spot, originally built with 36 then swapped to Revelation to shed a pound, bike very fun with Revelation. but recently did oil/seals on 36 and put it back on bike for 2 rides and noticed the big difference in fork matching frame's tracking. Revelation is a good fork but under stress it isn't the sturdiest. this is just chassis stuff, not damping quality stuff I'm talking.

radam, I wouldn't swap rims just to gain a little ID, but I'm a cheap bastard

[radam]

my 26 = 2011 5 Spot, originally built with 36 then swapped to Revelation to shed a pound, bike very fun with Revelation. but recently did oil/seals on 36 and put it back on bike for 2 rides and noticed the big difference in fork matching frame's tracking. Revelation is a good fork but under stress it isn't the sturdiest. this is just chassis stuff, not damping quality stuff I'm talking.

radam, I wouldn't swap rims just to gain a little ID, but I'm a cheap bastard

I'm also a cheap bastard, so that's good to know. I've been reading that wide rims are a game changer but if there's better ways to spend the money, I'm all for it. More than anything I'm trying to make sure that the money I do put into the bike either prevents me from needing to upgrade to a new complete or at least is money that is worth it in the meantime.


For the monarch options, how do the various "technologies" rank? i.e., Rapid Recovery, Debonair. Does an older Monarch Plus RC3 trump a newer RT3 Debonair? Or is newer better anyways to avoid weird issues like I'm having at the moment.

Oh and for forks, I need a 15mm axle to avoid getting a new wheel. Are Xfusion's 15mm offerings up to snuff?

[JeffreyJim]

Couple things to consider.

1) Wide rims are rad. However, they also are a pain. A number of tires end up far too squared off whereas others really come alive. That said, at 19mm you are really *really* narrow (I'm 35!). I probably would leave it alone until you blow up a rim though. Dollar for dollar Stans stuff is hard to beat... (also watch for some budget oriented wide stuff to be coming down the pipeline next year)

2) FWIW I still theink the Revelation is a good fork. Sounds like radam is weight concious. While putting a 5lbs fork on the bike will certainly change the bike I'm not sure its the change he's looking for... I could be wrong. If you can handle the weight, sure, the Vengeance is hard to beat for the money. Having tested the 34mm stuff, I think you'd be very happy with that too. Its a more "mechanical" feeling fork but it works very well. I like X-Fusion stuff dollar for dollar!

3) Rapid Recovery - marketing speak for "light high speed rebound tune". Debonair - marketing talk for "increased negative spring volume". They are all incremental gains but all together do make for a very well put together shock.

[creaky fossil]

for sure, wasn't suggesting going to a heavier fork, just observing that Revelation is within a hierarchy. my emphasis would be that Revelation doesn't make my bike less fun.

[kidwoo]

Isn't rapid recovery light LOW speed rebound damping? The idea being to keep the fork riding high but keep huge hit rebound in check.......which would be comparatively more high speed rebound damping.

The chassis on a revelation are rad. They actually feel stiffer fore aft to me than a pike. I wonder if you could cram a charger damper in there from a pike......

And let's just bask in the idea that a 5lb fork that you can beat the piss out of is considered heavy. Life don't suck right now

[JeffreyJim]

Isn't rapid recovery light LOW speed rebound damping? The idea being to keep the fork riding high but keep huge hit rebound in check.......which would be comparatively more high speed rebound damping.

The chassis on a revelation are rad. They actually feel stiffer fore aft to me than a pike. I wonder if you could cram a charger damper in there from a pike......

And let's just bask in the idea that a 5lb fork that you can beat the piss out of is considered heavy. Life don't suck right now

I was under the impression it was HSR - pretty sure. Will check.

[kidwoo]

I was under the impression it was HSR - pretty sure. Will check.

That would make it pack down. (and god I hate that suspension companies are using these terms....high and low speed when it's a position dependent thing)

Loose deep in the travel with comparatively heavier rebound at the shallow end would hold it down. It's the same idea with their two rebound dampers on the big rear shocks. You can go light off the top to keep it running high but then control gnarly hits by slowing down the deep stuff to keep things composed.

[JeffreyJim]

Just confirmed - it is in fact HSR - nerd away!

[radam]

Couple things to consider.

1) Wide rims are rad. However, they also are a pain. A number of tires end up far too squared off whereas others really come alive. That said, at 19mm you are really *really* narrow (I'm 35!). I probably would leave it alone until you blow up a rim though. Dollar for dollar Stans stuff is hard to beat... (also watch for some budget oriented wide stuff to be coming down the pipeline next year)

2) FWIW I still theink the Revelation is a good fork. Sounds like radam is weight concious. While putting a 5lbs fork on the bike will certainly change the bike I'm not sure its the change he's looking for... I could be wrong. If you can handle the weight, sure, the Vengeance is hard to beat for the money. Having tested the 34mm stuff, I think you'd be very happy with that too. Its a more "mechanical" feeling fork but it works very well. I like X-Fusion stuff dollar for dollar!

3) Rapid Recovery - marketing speak for "light high speed rebound tune". Debonair - marketing talk for "increased negative spring volume". They are all incremental gains but all together do make for a very well put together shock.

I'm not so much weight conscious as I have a 15mm DT front hub that can't convert to 20mm. If I could go 20mm without getting a new wheel, I would probably grab a Lyrik and call it a day. Maybe it's worth trying to find a buyer for both my wheel and fork, but at the same time that makes the upgrade a pretty complicated move.

This is all pretty helpful. I'm still overthinking it for sure but that's kind of the whole point, no? I try to spend my dollars wisely as I've made some un-informed/mis-informed bike decisions in the past and I'm just trying to avoid being stuck with parts that aren't any better than what I'm trying to replace.

[kidwoo]

Just confirmed - it is in fact HSR - nerd away!

But LIGHTER hsr relative to the low speed range? That would keep the 'rapid' part deeper in the stroke. That's not how they promote it. I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just not understanding how that correlates to what they proclaim about their rear shocks. That's basically buck city.

edit: Looks like it

To do this RockShox has tuned the ending stroke rebound damper a little faster, but blends that with a slightly slower, more controlled, beginning stroke to keep you from getting too much rebound feedback

http://www.bikemag.com/gear/news-roc...-pike-is-back/

Now I'm wondering if all the shit I stuffed in the air spring of my pike was trying to deal with something the damper is doing........

[JeffreyJim]

But LIGHTER hsr relative to the low speed range? That would keep the 'rapid' part deeper in the stroke. That's not how they promote it. I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just not understanding how that correlates to what they proclaim about their rear shocks. That's basically buck city.

There are very few (if any) truly independent adjustments out there. When you adjust your low speed you are also adjusting your high speed and vice versa (though less with respect to high speed effecting your low speed).

That said, its not like the rebound is non existent. It's just lighter. The point is when the fork/shock is deeper in its travel it can "recover" faster. I know, high speed/low speed and position sensitive are all different but yeah...this is the gist.

J

EDIT: And yes, some have mentioned it is a bit buck-y though most just slow everything down an additional click or two past "normal". YMMV.

[creaky fossil]

The chassis on a revelation are rad. They actually feel stiffer fore aft to me than a pike. I wonder if you could cram a charger damper in there from a pike.....

Avalanche has a drop-in damper, I've never ridden his stuff. How tight is the charger in those 35mm stanchions? I'm not exactly the guy for creative machine work, though.

The biggest difference on a day-to-day basis between the 36 and the Revelation is how light the front wheel is -- again, ignoring the damping feel differences. I put the 36 back on when the Revelation's solo air did a sucked-down-into-travel thing. Apparently this is from the pos/neg chambers getting imbalanced and new ones have a schrader in the spring side's bottom/ground end internally but the Revelation I have doesn't have that schrader -- at least not obviously. You know the fix?

[kidwoo]

I've never dug into a revelation but it sounds like the same thing they were doing with the boxxers. The first time I rebuilt the air spring part of my boxer I got some grease in the way of that Schrader and the neg chamber wouldn't charge.

That and the little dimple thing a ways into the travel are how they've done it in the past. The Schrader would get triggered at top out from what I remember. Which would be on the bottom of the air spring piston facing the top of the stanction cap if the fork is upright. Does that make sense?

[creaky fossil]

Yep, this is the dimple version, and that makes sense thanks.

[kidwoo]

JJ: sorry, I read it on the internet
http://www.ridemonkey.com/threads/20...2#post-4010005