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Thread: Competence

  1. #26
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    Only took 25 posts for fun...

  2. #27
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    Competence

    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard View Post
    One of the more empowering moments in a risk takers life is when they become aware of their own limitations and start to act accordingly.
    I recently had this moment myself. I started looking back at a few key instances of ignorant non-decision, where I unknowingly assumed risk without any amount of deliberation. Now, much more risk aware and acting with a beginners mindset, I've become sensitive to my own incompetency --- I'm at a point where I'm debating if I can ever gain enough competence (through practice and education) to actually enjoy the type of skiing experience I want.

    The lack of negative feedback and perpetual positive reinforcement, as Lee noted above from Tremper, makes me question if these proposed 5 characteristics of competency are either a) achievable or b) measurable.

  3. #28
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    In almost every tragedy or near miss, the familiar refrain is "what the fuck were they thinking". Competence in the mountains comes from being fully engaged in the multiplicity of variables. The right way to do it is known (or knowable), but the challenge (and the reward) is getting out of one's irrelevant obsessions, and into the moment.

    #7. Maintains a continual detached awareness of interior thoughts, and maintains full engagement with the process.

    I maintain that reading Krishnamurti is as instructive as Bruce Tremper.

  4. #29
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    When I included "knows your limitations" I was thinking only of the physical side.

    That said, understanding your mental limitations - the mental shortcuts, how you lose situational awareness, etc. - is just as important. Buddhists talk about "mindful awareness" - the ability to step outside of yourself and rationally analyze your own thinking/emotions - as a key to happiness.

    So, proposing another formal competency trait that y'all have been talking about
    7. Practices Mindful Awareness in the field

    Edit to add - Koot beat me to it.

  5. #30
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    cookie monster threads are always good threads
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  6. #31
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    Educate yourself

    make good decisions
    make good decisions
    make good decisions

    I could go on and on about what not to do but that doesn't sell well. We've all done some dumb shit whether we admit it or not. I've been using very similar math as LL for years. I think it helps drive home exactly how good we have to be about making good decisions.

    How many people do you know that have quite a bit of education yet constantly spew shit like, "It feels stable" or some other shit? How many people do you know that are oblivious to visual clues, dig no hand pits? How many people do you know that don't set good safe zone, don't watch their partners, or are constantly having gear issues? These people can't make good decisions.

    This is the enemy. People want to make it about L2, airbags, strategic digging, wiz bag beacons, ALPTRUTHs and such. That's nice.

    Make good decisions.

  7. #32
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    What is the definition of a "good decision?" Is it cause and effect that produces a positive result? cause and effect that produces no result?
    long live the jahrator

  8. #33
    Hugh Conway Guest
    apparently "digging hand pits" all the time is a good decision. this seems at the granularity where different schools have different thoughts < shrug >

  9. #34
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    In general I prefer lots of information from frequent hand pits/pole stabs coupled with professional reports to spending extended time digging a full pit.

    I will take a stab at some one else's thoughts: making good decisions means being conscious of the information you are using to make your decision-what information you have and what information you lack. Your decision reflects how you view that information and being able to support that decision with the information.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    ... constantly spew shit like, "It feels stable"

    ...Make good decisions.
    If I hear someone say "it should be ok". What I really heard was "I want it to be ok". I then ask them to list all the reasons they can think of why it might not be ok, and all the reasons that are going in their favor. Many can not list even 2.

    I often think that "making good decisions" reflects more on the process of making that decision than the outcome, so long as the outcome is right much more often than wrong, of course. And when you are wrong, the severity doesn't take you out of the game for good, or damage your emotional ability to engage in future risk decisions productively. Because, over time you ARE going to be wrong, that is ok, so long as you admit that and have a process of making decisions which accounts for that fallibility.

    Skier A triggers an avalanche after applying a prudent and consistent process of data gathering and decision making. Considering terrain, weather, snowpack, people in the group, motivations, commitment and exposure, severity of being wrong etc.

    Skier B triggers an avalanche after saying "I think it will be ok".

    Both got it wrong. Skier A attempted to make a good decision and was wrong. Skier B made no decision at all, he just hoped.

    Applying a decision making process and getting it wrong provides the opportunity to learn and get it right[er] next time. Hoping it will be ok doesn't support future improvements. Good decision making processes support future better decision making processes.

    Ask most professional speculators. Good decision making is as much about the process as it is about the outcome (unless you end up dead... ?).
    Life is not lift served.

  11. #36
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    I just attended a presentation by Greg Hill, mostly an examination of his experiences avoiding the disaster on Manaslu, then getting avalanched on his first run in Pakistan. Lot's of thought provoking aspects, but the biggest take home was the necessity of cultivating an awareness of the ways in which each of us circumvent whatever "rules" we use to stay safe in the mountains, and developing strategies for countering these self-destructive impulses. Know thyself.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kootenayskier View Post
    ... the necessity of cultivating an awareness of the ways in which each of us circumvent whatever "rules" we use to stay safe in the mountains... self-destructive impulses. Know thyself.
    Good one. Once moving on a slope, I sometimes rush subsequent downslope decisions under the excuse that I like to keep moving in the mountains. I'm a believer in maintaining momentum once you start. Keep moving. That commitment to momentum is probably sometimes circumventing whatever "rules" I use to stay safe in the mountains.
    Life is not lift served.

  13. #38
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    Lots of great posts in this thread. Thanks.
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  14. #39
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    a really nice vape and a willingness to die pursuing passion

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sal the salmon View Post
    a really nice vape and a willingness to die pursuing passion

  16. #41
    spook Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mofro261 View Post

    Maybe in line with what Lee alluded to in terms of mental aspects, # 6 displays humility and respect for the mountain environment.
    I think understands/internalizes/feels is better than displays. nitpicky probably but going through the motions because that's the process you learned doesn't seem quite the same as being 100% in the moment diligently comprehending the environment and your place in it while you go through the process

  17. #42
    spook Guest
    looks like some others already had the same idea. also, having not done it in a BC snow sense, does trip planning not involve possible alternatives ahead of time so that a decisionmaking process has already taken place with regard to certain variables? if the problem Is goal-oriented people shouldn't trip planning involve alternatives to diffuse that? instead of saying "we only skied low angle pow" as a lesser say at the beginning that we're going in this area and going to have the best safest trip given the conditions rather than "we're going to try to climb such and such." also semanticky but a mindset. I used to be hyper goal oriented. now I have become much more about gratefully receiving what is safely presented.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    does trip planning not involve possible alternatives ahead of time so that a decisionmaking process has already taken place with regard to certain variables?
    this is one of the most important components of a "plan." if you don't have options, you don't have shit.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecowhit View Post
    I try not to ski with people who are overly objective oriented. This includes a lot of my climber/alpinist friends. With them it's often all about the objective with a name and being able to tell others what they did. As opposed to saying "it wasn't the day, we skied low angle powder". These are often the people who don't seem to really enjoy the simple act of sliding on snow. Touring with skiers who are relaxed and ok with simply skiing some powder when conditions don't allow is key. I like going for objectives, but realize that life is long and the line will be there.
    I also avoid people who don't get out enough, even if they're in shape and knowledgeable. When you only get to ski a few days a month your ampness can override logic. This is dangerous.
    The ability to change behavior in the wake of a mistake is also important imo. It's interesting how that sorts, and how many people refuse to do this. For slides, I'm amazed how many people after an incident spend a lot of time talking about how experienced and careful they all were, and that it "just happened" after all precautions were taken...so they spend a couple weeks wigged out, then often do nothing to change their behavior. Only a minority seem able to say, Gee, we screwed up, here's what we will do differently for the future. For instance, will they always utilize ALP TRUTH or a similar tool? Very often people may even be aware of it, but the answer will be "sometimes, depending on the day and who I'm with," i.e. the tool becomes useless because they don't systematically apply it.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowing alpy View Post
    i got #1 dialed in but have been minimizing the extreme gnar to avoid taking a #2 in the shorts.
    Made my 2014.

    Happy new year on that note.

    Stay away from objective/goal oriented backcountry partners. Find a safe road/area up, see if it might work to have a alternate plan or 3+ plans down.
    Terje was right.

    "We're all kooks to somebody else." -Shelby Menzel

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyIsland View Post
    The ability to change behavior in the wake of a mistake is also important imo. It's interesting how that sorts, and how many people refuse to do this. For slides, I'm amazed how many people after an incident spend a lot of time talking about how experienced and careful they all were, and that it "just happened" after all precautions were taken...so they spend a couple weeks wigged out, then often do nothing to change their behavior. Only a minority seem able to say, Gee, we screwed up, here's what we will do differently for the future. For instance, will they always utilize ALP TRUTH or a similar tool? Very often people may even be aware of it, but the answer will be "sometimes, depending on the day and who I'm with," i.e. the tool becomes useless because they don't systematically apply it.
    yo jong aint much rules herfe youre free to only post in slide zone threads and enjoy the anonymity, but care to quantify your experience and # of days you spend touring
    you could be bruce almighty or the most extreme armchair qb master of the community
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

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