but there's no flow to that trail

[thewon]

I thought it was flow



then I realized it was just a wet fart


Just get out there and ride your fucking bike! Flow blah blah. We don't need no stinking flow.

truth! all of it!

[creaky fossil]

the funny thing is that dude who gets credited with originating or at least distilling to words the concept of "flow" in athletics, he wasn't talking about the terrain, he was talking about the athlete's mental state, existential headspace, etc, and he would never say a trail has flow, he would say that only the rider can experience flow, and it depends only on the rider's interaction with the trail at the moment flow-or-not is in question.

any geezers out there who played golf or tennis in the 70s or 80s might remember Timothy Gallwey's "Inner _____" books, they were just a big elaboration on the same "flow" concept but labelled differently. Gallwey would never say a tennis court needed to provide flow, nor that a golf course needed to provide it.

[hick]

the funny thing is that dude who gets credited with originating or at least distilling to words the concept of "flow" in athletics, he wasn't talking about the terrain, he was talking about the athlete's mental state, existential headspace, etc, and he would never say a trail has flow, he would say that only the rider can experience flow, and it depends only on the rider's interaction with the trail at the moment flow-or-not is in question.

any geezers out there who played golf or tennis in the 70s or 80s might remember Timothy Gallwey's "Inner _____" books, they were just a big elaboration on the same "flow" concept but labelled differently. Gallwey would never say a tennis court needed to provide flow, nor that a golf course needed to provide it.

Now that is an interesting way to look at it. Never thought of it that way. I like it.

[creaky fossil]

Now that is an interesting way to look at it. Never thought of it that way. I like it.

it is good, it was only by randomness I encountered Gallwey's ideas in my late teens but they had a big influence on how I see all athletics.

I tend to think of flow like a cheetah chasing prey. you think the cheetah is saying to itself, "well, I'm gonna hold back here, I'm intimidated by that cluster of brambles to the right and the jagged rocks to the left, this savannah needs to be obstacle-free in order for me to catch my prey"? no fargin' way, it's just adapting to what's in front of it.

it's just like skiing ungroomed unregulated snow.

I'll tell you why I think it's hard for many to experience flow this way: it requires humility.

it also reminds me of a great philosophy prof I had in college, who opened his Phil 101 class with reference to a child's wonder. he said, "you know how children after about a year or two of talking, begin to ask "why?" in response to lots of things you say? well, that's how you should see philosophy, always asking why, never being too certain."

[abraham]

I haven't ridden my bike in any serious manner for two years now, but I spent a summer following friends in salt lake who spent most of their riding on bmx bikes because they liked doing little tricks on the trail. Following them probably was the cause of the single biggest advance in my skiing, to choose a line that should work, then pump and get the in the air as needed to make it work.

[creaky fossil]

seeing new lines and making them happen is --for some riders/skiers/skaters/climbers-- the thing itself

you might be able to get the same insights watching Alex Rankin's DH race videos and paying attention to riders' line choices and bike/body manipulation, avoid Clay Porter's videos as they're useless for that

it's a pretty big leap in both skiing and MTB to go from 2-D to 3-D, but it doesn't have to be something that only arrives late in your development as a skier or rider. it doesn't require flat-horizon "flow trails" to learn it either. more the opposite, really.

[muted]

the funny thing is that dude who gets credited with originating or at least distilling to words the concept of "flow" in athletics, he wasn't talking about the terrain, he was talking about the athlete's mental state, existential headspace, etc, and he would never say a trail has flow, he would say that only the rider can experience flow, and it depends only on the rider's interaction with the trail at the moment flow-or-not is in question.

any geezers out there who played golf or tennis in the 70s or 80s might remember Timothy Gallwey's "Inner _____" books, they were just a big elaboration on the same "flow" concept but labelled differently. Gallwey would never say a tennis court needed to provide flow, nor that a golf course needed to provide it.

I am not a geezer, but I've read the Inner game Of Tennis because I was told by an old geezer it can relate to skiing.

[Catch22]

seeing new lines and making them happen is --for some riders/skiers/skaters/climbers-- the thing itself

you might be able to get the same insights watching Alex Rankin's DH race videos and paying attention to riders' line choices and bike/body manipulation, avoid Clay Porter's videos as they're useless for that

it's a pretty big leap in both skiing and MTB to go from 2-D to 3-D, but it doesn't have to be something that only arrives late in your development as a skier or rider. it doesn't require flat-horizon "flow trails" to learn it either. more the opposite, really.

I think the humility you mention is a big point and then just having a realization of what is possible through watching others. The first trip I made west from IA when I was 19 was mind blowing. A couple of us thought we were pretty solid riders and we showed up in Fruita and Moab and rode the touristy trails and were blown away. Trails regularly had features that I had no concept of how to ride and seeing locals ride it was insane. The same happened again once we moved out west. I rode in SLC/PC on the more common public trails and thought I was pretty good until I met some people down south and was shown the less touristy trails with bigger moves and features. Again, mind blown and total perspective change on what was possible. I didn't immediately start trying everything but seeing others do it you learn to try more and you understand how far you are down the totem pole from really good riders. I didn't want easy trails anymore because I understood I wasn't any good and feeling cool riding a cartpath in the mountains wasn't going to change anything. It made me want to get better and all I wanted was to keep riding harder trails.

I think this is why the concept of flow trails drives me crazy. Sure, they are nice entry level experiences and anyone can have fun on them but as others have mentioned, building one that allows for progression and better riding is almost a pipe dream. There are a few more advanced ones out there but for every one good one that comes about there are 10-20 bad ones and it's become such an easy sell for land managers, especially with IMBA's endless endorsement and promotion.

Completely agree that flow is a state of mind not a trail type. My best memories of finding flow on rides have been on Ahab, Portal, and Holy Cross. Places where I've had some pretty ugly rides as well but sometimes it all comes together and it's far more rewarding than anything I've ever found on a "flow trail."

[creaky fossil]

I think this is why the concept of flow trails drives me crazy. Sure, they are nice entry level experiences and anyone can have fun on them but as others have mentioned, building one that allows for progression and better riding is almost a pipe dream. There are a few more advanced ones out there but for every one good one that comes about there are 10-20 bad ones and it's become such an easy sell for land managers, especially with IMBA's endless endorsement and promotion.

lots of issues raised by this quoted text, political wrestling avoided with lowest common denominator, please-everyone approaches that give too much indulgence to complaints about "elitism" ruining "the sport," etc -- it's a mess of thorns, the practicalities of why flow trails are so popular and so frequently approved

sounds like you like challenging yourself to improve. for a lot of participants in any sport, that's part of the game, but it's not how everyone sees it. the casual participant might approach MTB more like sightseeing, leaf-peeping, saturday stroll. to those people, wanting to improve may never be on the radar screen. I get called "elitist" for saying this, but I think the casual participant should not be consulted in such matters.

I think I said it once before in a different thread here -- if you want to experience flow relevant to riding a MTB, and you like video games, then you should try playing Trials HD, Trials Evolution, or Trials Fusion.

Trials Evolution is the best of the 3, best physics in the control of the bike.

you can't do well in any of the Trials series games unless you can see new lines, and figure out how to make them happen with acceleration, braking, weighting, and bike attitude adjustment. getting the entry level bronze medal is easy, silver is a bit tougher, but gold and platinum will require you to master flow on a seemingly awkward course. if you get Trials Evolution, get the add-on packs so you can get the 20" trials bicycle, which isn't part of the basic game. the trials bicycle is good, without throttle to boost you quickly, weight-balance-pedal kick-land smart becomes technically important. the throttle bikes forgive more.

[WaistDeepGroomers]

I think the humility you mention is a big point and then just having a realization of what is possible through watching others. The first trip I made west from IA when I was 19 was mind blowing. A couple of us thought we were pretty solid riders and we showed up in Fruita and Moab and rode the touristy trails and were blown away. Trails regularly had features that I had no concept of how to ride and seeing locals ride it was insane. The same happened again once we moved out west. I rode in SLC/PC on the more common public trails and thought I was pretty good until I met some people down south and was shown the less touristy trails with bigger moves and features. Again, mind blown and total perspective change on what was possible. I didn't immediately start trying everything but seeing others do it you learn to try more and you understand how far you are down the totem pole from really good riders. I didn't want easy trails anymore because I understood I wasn't any good and feeling cool riding a cartpath in the mountains wasn't going to change anything. It made me want to get better and all I wanted was to keep riding harder trails.

I think this is why the concept of flow trails drives me crazy. Sure, they are nice entry level experiences and anyone can have fun on them but as others have mentioned, building one that allows for progression and better riding is almost a pipe dream. There are a few more advanced ones out there but for every one good one that comes about there are 10-20 bad ones and it's become such an easy sell for land managers, especially with IMBA's endless endorsement and promotion.

Completely agree that flow is a state of mind not a trail type. My best memories of finding flow on rides have been on Ahab, Portal, and Holy Cross. Places where I've had some pretty ugly rides as well but sometimes it all comes together and it's far more rewarding than anything I've ever found on a "flow trail."

Id agree. But flow trails done right should support different levels of riding in their constructions. Again, half Nelson in Squamish is such a good example; you could roll the entire thing or be honking and making huge doubles and having a way different ride. Good flow trails should run like that, as thats what made riding that trail so damn fun. Another ideal would be cats paw at highland mountain, which has three different lines and features on every set and two side by side berms I. Sections. Just so much creativity to be had, and can be enjoyed from a very mellow level all the way up to expert. I'd say as a rule of them that if there's only one way and one speed to ride a flow trail "you're doing it wrong"

[creaky fossil]

well to be oversimple, any trail can be ridden a multiple of ways, no matter how boring the trail

sculpted trails in forests mess with one of the intangibles that make MTB trails valuable, the sense of place/location/setting, and the more you take universal high-energy-cost feature-laden construction and put it in individual places, the more those places become McTrails. what would make for better location feel and thus, ironically, more drive for tourist visits for MTB, is a sense of place and not a sense of sameness.

herd-followers never have these insights, and herd-followers lead most political wrestling matches

if MTB advocates knew how soft-pedaling and accommodating-when-not-having-to their advocacy is, relative to other advocates in governmental policymaking, they might be a little redfaced

[kidwoo]

New rule:

All sculpted trails must have 50 ft doubles with 8 ft lips and oververt berms that you can't even stick to under 30mph.


flow trails fine, just remove the non intimidating part

[JerseyDave]

well to be oversimple, any trail can be ridden a multiple of ways, no matter how boring the trail

sculpted trails in forests mess with one of the intangibles that make MTB trails valuable, the sense of place/location/setting, and the more you take universal high-energy-cost feature-laden construction and put it in individual places, the more those places become McTrails. what would make for better location feel and thus, ironically, more drive for tourist visits for MTB, is a sense of place and not a sense of sameness.

Yea. What happened to skiing in the east and hopefully not the riding too.

[gravitylover]

well to be oversimple, any trail can be ridden a multiple of ways, no matter how boring the trail

Which is why we can ride with our wives/gf's and not be totally bored to tears. Fun is there you just have to embrace what you find.

[/QUOTE]sculpted trails in forests mess with one of the intangibles that make MTB trails valuable, the sense of place/location/setting, [/QUOTE]

This is why I choose to ride certain places frequently and ignore others. This also describes my style of "trailbuilding." I stand there and see the line then clear the slightest path through the woods and ride it in.

[thewon]

This is why I choose to ride certain places frequently and ignore others. This also describes my style of "trailbuilding." I stand there and see the line then clear the slightest path through the woods and ride it in.

Yup, I'm right there with ya. Built about 8 mile of trail in the last year. Set of loppers. A rake, and a fatbike.

[BushwackerinPA]

Yea. What happened to skiing in the east and hopefully not the riding too.

Untill the woods are gone it hard to say skiing in the east in Mcskiing.

[thewon]

Untill the woods are gone it hard to say skiing in the east in Mcskiing.

The white mountains of nh are and always will be legit. No tree skiing necessary.

[kootenayskier]

I design, build, and maintain trails for a living, and this is the stuff that I think about all the time. As a fit and experienced rider I have my personal trail preferences (think Captain Ahab, Comfortably Numb, McKenzie River etc.), but publicly funded authorized trails must provide satisfying experiences for a broad range of trail users. My community already has a great range of challenging riding, so my focus has been expanding the options for "intermediate" trails. It's easy to get all elitist about how riders should just rise to level of the trail, but there's also something pretty satisfying in seeing large numbers of mums, kids, and retirees joining the usual "dudes" out riding on the trails, and the resulting mainstream political and financial support is what makes developing these new trails possible. Back to what I think is the point, I think it is possible to make "intermediate" trails that are playful and exist in harmony (as per Troy Scott Parker) with the land. I have all sorts of (aesthetic and practical) issues with machine built bermed-up trails, but you can certainly experience "flow" when riding a good one, and if you can incorporate some of those same feelings into an intricate hand-built trail, riders will love it. Though it's important to maintain the essential insight, that mountain biking is primarily about the satisfaction of achieving "flow" (a feeling rather than a feature) through the skillful adaptation to natural terrain, so a trail must have sufficient variety of random natural forms, at whatever skill level is appropriate. The details matter.

[grskier]

Well said kootenayskier.

[creaky fossil]

not picking on you personally here kootenayskier

but publicly funded authorized trails must provide satisfying experiences for a broad range of trail users.

as an ideal, or as a mandate in a statute's language regarding public facilities?

yes

do you have to interpret that so the most intimidated person feels welcome?

no

public basketball courts don't have 3' lower hoops so kids can learn dunking

public tennis courts don't have nets that lower instantly to clear an otherwise failing shot, so rookies can lose fewer points

who says The Standard in MTB requires every rider's character, potential riders as well as existing ones, must be accommodated to make everyone feel safe & relaxed?

who says such a The Standard exists?

say... did you know that one of the toughest, most feared golf courses in America is a public course?

hell, it's even in a part of America known for its conformity. Long Island NY.

[kootenayskier]

not picking on you personally here kootenayskier



as an ideal, or as a mandate in a statute's language regarding public facilities?

yes

do you have to interpret that so the most intimidated person feels welcome?

no

public basketball courts don't have 3' lower hoops so kids can learn dunking

public tennis courts don't have nets that lower instantly to clear an otherwise failing shot, so rookies can lose fewer points

who says The Standard in MTB requires every rider's character, potential riders as well as existing ones, must be accommodated to make everyone feel safe & relaxed?

who says such a The Standard exists?

say... did you know that one of the toughest, most feared golf courses in America is a public course?

hell, it's even in a part of America known for its conformity. Long Island NY.

I'm not suggesting that all trails should be accessible to all users, just that if I'm accepting public money to provide trails to my community, then an appropriate proportion (interpret that as you wish) of trails should be enjoyable by terminal intermediates. Further, that such trails don't have to be wide, generic, dumbed down bike park style trails, because intermediates actually enjoy all the trail qualities that fitter and more skilled riders do, just scaled to their abilities.

[JerseyDave]

I design, build, and maintain trails for a living, and this is the stuff that I think about all the time. As a fit and experienced rider I have my personal trail preferences (think Captain Ahab, Comfortably Numb, McKenzie River etc.), but publicly funded authorized trails must provide satisfying experiences for a broad range of trail users. My community already has a great range of challenging riding, so my focus has been expanding the options for "intermediate" trails. It's easy to get all elitist about how riders should just rise to level of the trail, but there's also something pretty satisfying in seeing large numbers of mums, kids, and retirees joining the usual "dudes" out riding on the trails, and the resulting mainstream political and financial support is what makes developing these new trails possible. Back to what I think is the point, I think it is possible to make "intermediate" trails that are playful and exist in harmony (as per Troy Scott Parker) with the land. I have all sorts of (aesthetic and practical) issues with machine built bermed-up trails, but you can certainly experience "flow" when riding a good one, and if you can incorporate some of those same feelings into an intricate hand-built trail, riders will love it. Though it's important to maintain the essential insight, that mountain biking is primarily about the satisfaction of achieving "flow" (a feeling rather than a feature) through the skillful adaptation to natural terrain, so a trail must have sufficient variety of random natural forms, at whatever skill level is appropriate. The details matter.

100 percent. It's the irregularities that make it. If a trail is just sine wave pumps and identical turn after identical turn it's looses it's appeal pretty fast. No sense of improvisation when you ride them.

[gravitylover]

say... did you know that one of the toughest, most feared golf courses in America is a public course?

hell, it's even in a part of America known for its conformity. Long Island NY.

I cut my teeth playing that course a couple of times a year when I was a kid. Unfortunately I haven't been back since it was restored for the Open, maybe in the spring. Funny thing is that same park has some fantastic "easy" mt bike riding too. We rode the shit out of that place before mt bikes were called mt bikes, some of them had banana seats, some had balloon whitewall knobbys and some had drop bars. Whatever they were we made the best of them and had a ball. Call it what you want, dumbing down the trails or building for the masses. Maybe practice tail whips or something. Get out and ride, enjoy the ride, make lemonade