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Thread: The Human Factor
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11-27-2014, 07:48 AM #51
Meh. This should have been one piece and cutting it into small pieces has just made the content look thin.
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11-27-2014, 03:45 PM #52
So far I've been very impressed by this series. The focus on Human Factors is welcome and encouraging. Props to Powder and BD for supporting this sort of journalism.
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11-28-2014, 06:47 PM #53Lurker
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I was unimpressed by some low journalistic standards of the first portion. Errors in fact checking (guide's name and age are incorrect, for example) and not having interviewed any of the people present?!? Might not yet be the appropriate time to tell the story, when you don't have the whole story.
Granted, I agree that stories like this are crucial in retooling how we look at avalanches and risk management, and look forward to the rest of the series (and the discussion it will continue to generate).
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11-30-2014, 10:58 AM #54Registered User
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In terms of human factors and people being under their own control, peer pressure and informal culture are in fact huge. Is an assistant guide getting one of his first assignments going to contradict his colleague and, e.g., insist on safe travel protocol or suggest that rolling the dice above an obvious terrain trap is not a good choice? Most people in that situation will go along. Unless the culture requires otherwise or express rules require otherwise. If the standard had been "gang skiing gets you fired," then it would be clear that it's ok to step up. I believe most people if they're honest with themselves display less free agency in these scenarios than they'd like.
In terms of competence, there tends to be a normal human reaction after an accident to profess the expertise of the people involved. Often, oddly, also talking about how good they were athletically, as if being graceful or skilled matters in this context assuming a fall wasn't the trigger. Sheep Creek saw much the same reaction. In terms of training and education for the future, in analyzing an incident I do think it's relevant to ask, was this a normal thing, or a sudden departure from normal conservative judgment? Leaving the choice of a terrain trap on a considerable day with an upside down snowpack and pillows of windslab out of it, when did the gang skiing start to happen and how was it justified?
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12-01-2014, 10:04 PM #55Registered User
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I liked the first few installments, the one just released tonight was a let-down. It's essentially saying, Even relatively educated and experienced bc users do stupid stuff. Well, ok?
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12-02-2014, 08:50 AM #56
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12-02-2014, 09:02 AM #57"When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
"I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
"THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
"I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno
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12-02-2014, 09:08 AM #58Registered User
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Agreed. Maybe different iterations of stupid stuff in each, but no framing of how to avoid the stupid stuff in a reliable fashion. The gang skiing or the quick lap without gear both are glaring but it takes a culture that forces people to not allow glaring things to slip in.
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12-02-2014, 09:37 AM #59Banned
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It's a fair question. Casual standards for casual readers? What of those in the audience who expect more? Those who do, they'll feel and think critically of pieces which fall short. Part of whether you believe someone's written output is how well the writer complies with what the reader expects, compositionally and rhetorically and fact- or perspective-rigor wise. Editorial slippage resulting in bad comma placement, mis-spellings, etc. is pretty juvenile.
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12-02-2014, 10:48 AM #60
Are you trying to say there is more money to be made by trying to understand bad decisions made by bc users than bad decisions made by medical professionals? There are many financial incentives in place to try and prevent bad decisions and mistakes in healthcare but we are human and we will always find a way to fuck up anything.
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12-02-2014, 12:11 PM #61
The most noteworthy thing I took out of the latest instalment is that Amie Engerbretson survived two avalanches last winter. Which means she fucked up twice. Does anyone know anything about the second avalanche? I'm much more interested in what mistakes were made that second time, given that she already got lucky once.
Edit: So I did some Googling on my lunch break and found a blog about her second incident:
Two days later, my winter took a big turn. I was up shooting still photos inbounds at Crystal Mountain on one of the deepest powder days of my life, when I hit an air in a treed area of open terrain. Upon my landing, a narrow pocket of snow released and immediately pulled me under and drug me down the slope. I was flipped face down in the snow, head down slope, snow completely filling my mouth, unable to fight against the force, and filled with the dreadful thought, “No. Not again.” Eventually I was able to deploy my airbag and was spit out to the side. The pocket was narrow, with about a one-foot crown, I was carried about 400 feet down slope and eventually found my other ski another 700 feet down in the debris. Once the notion was clear that I wasn’t buried or wrapped around a tree, a sharp pain in my right knee made itself very apparent.Last edited by AlexC; 12-02-2014 at 02:29 PM.
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12-02-2014, 01:04 PM #62
^^^ Her career = "instapro" without much personal BC exploration/experiential learning prior to being placed into uncontrolled avy terrain where she was making the calls herself. At least, that's what it has seemed like to this casual observer who doesn't know her personally. May be wrong. But that's just what it seems like.
Edit: Just caught up. I like the approach described in Chapter 3 about how certain guide ops designate slopes as green, yellow, or red. Something I may try to incorporate into my practice on at least some level.Last edited by LightRanger; 12-02-2014 at 02:14 PM.
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12-02-2014, 05:42 PM #63
Being 20 something with balls and some athletic talent doesn't make anyone an expert bc skier.
Not recognizing a horrible terrain trap like Grizzly Gulch makes me question all the folks saying "Adam Clark is always so cautious and conservative". It's more likely that he's just been getting lucky like the rest of us.
Most of what I see is hubris when it comes to people talking about themselves and others in regards to competence in the back country.
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12-02-2014, 06:09 PM #64
Perhaps he is... until Human Factors take over common sense. It happens to all of us. Which is the point of this series.
But generally - and away from the people in this series - I do see plenty of examples of this, including myself in the past: "Most of what I see is hubris when it comes to people talking about themselves and others in regards to competence in the back country."Life is not lift served.
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12-02-2014, 06:58 PM #65Hugh Conway Guest
Who does? Especially at crystal or other "big-ish" resorts. No knock on their patrol implied or meant, but it's big enough and on a "super deep" day there's far too much terrain that could cause you problems "in bounds" and things change far too fast in the day. If you've got the gear... why turn off the brain?
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12-02-2014, 07:09 PM #66Registered User
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"Looks like this season is your season" A quote to me after my second time caught, by a woman who got caught more than once the previous season. Thinking back through the years, it does seem that one of the crew does to seem to take more rides than the rest, and it does change. I don't think luck has much to do with it. Den
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12-03-2014, 08:33 AM #67
What I think is that he had an agenda other than keeping the athletes safe. His job is to get great ski pictures. I'm not saying he disregards their safety but that his goal gets in the way of good decision making.
And yes it happens to all of us, I've been caught in a slide(inbounds) and taken a long, violent uncontrolled slide both times alone. Both were the result of habituation and I should have known better.
Yes it's all hubris, there are no experts. We can only try and make good decisions. Now when I travel in the bc my focus is staying out of slides and not skiing the rad lines and I can still have fun. That's not to say I don't expose myself at times but if I do I really try and make sure the consequences aren't as dire.
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12-03-2014, 11:22 AM #68
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12-04-2014, 09:23 AM #69
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12-04-2014, 09:55 AM #70Banned
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If you know the area and have entered or exited thru there, it'd be pretty easy for many folks to underestimate that little pitch with a cat road, a powerline, and multiple homes as a backdrop. Add fresh pow with the bluebirdie singing and you got complacent town USA.
Just sayin.
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12-04-2014, 10:45 AM #71
Add to that they're trying to get "the shot" and she comes to a stop right in the middle of that slope, it's not even really skiing it's a turn. I'm sure she's a better skier than me, but that doesn't mean she's competent.
It always gives me a bad feeling when people stop mid slope even when the condition seem or are fine.
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12-04-2014, 11:38 AM #72Banned
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Yup. It's not even a "shot" that gets skied cept for a photo op or maybe for building a kicker on. Someone coming in from the cat road wouldn't even see if there was any recent activity on that road embankment of a slope. You'd hafta be up on the emma skiing refrozen coral or glue depending on the time of day when teh sun shines, and even then you'd prolly just schuss right by it.
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12-04-2014, 12:13 PM #73
I know eighth graders with more avalanche awareness then that chick
“I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.”
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12-04-2014, 02:21 PM #74
I hadn't seen the pictures of that from the top looking down until now. Holy shit.
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12-04-2014, 06:33 PM #75
This whole incident was well thrashed in either ski/snowboard or here in SZ when it happened last year.
McCammon's six factors are not unique to avalanches. People make the same mistakes in all parts of their lives.
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