Winter Proof Hydration Pack with Heater

[skiing-in-jackson]

Don't use a hydration pack in the winter.

Winner!

In general: Hydration packs = #1 overrated article of gear.

[2wheeler]

If I take my hydration pack for a long tour I do try to set it up for success:

1. Always keep the hose free of water. Any water will freeze in the hose if it's cold enough. I don't blow the water back into the bag, that will just create pressure and force water back into the hose. Open the nozzle holding it high in the air and let it drain back into the bag. This only works if the bag isn't completely full ( I usually have the bag 2/3 full). I strap the hose to my backpack so that the drinking nozzle is above my shoulder and the highest point in the system. Gravity does the work and water doesn't collect in the mouthpiece.
2. Whenever I take my pack off for a break I have to remember to drain the hose when I put it back on.
3. I use the OR soft mouthpiece, if it does get a little water frozen in it I can chew it out with my teeth. I usually go through 1 or 2 mouthpieces a season.

With all that being said most tours I use a 1L insulated Thermos and bring hot tea or soup. I'll also leave a thermos in the car for post exercise hydration when I get back from an outing.

Personally not really interested in more tech than a thermos.

If you're going to attach heat tape to your drinking tube you might want to check if there is any electromagnetic interference with your beacon.

[drowninsnow]

If you're going to attach heat tape to your drinking tube you might want to check if there is any electromagnetic interference with your beacon.

Hmm I never thought about interference. But if it operates on a DC battery I'd assume there would be low interference. Thanks for the suggestion.

Muadib.

He will know your ways as if born to them.

Fremen Suits FTMFW!!!

Too many Dune Series references...should I read these? Someone please explain the gist.

[drowninsnow]

I have a brand new, never used Camelbak Powderbak ($100 retail) that I'm trying to sell right now. Let me know if you're interested. I can do like $50.

I'll hold off for now, im going to see how this heating thing works. If it weighs too much I might buy your vest or the the touring pack someone posted on here.

[GeezerSteve]

Don't use a hydration pack in the winter.

This. If you need a hydration hose on tour on a sub-freezing point tour you're doing something wrong. FTR, I'm a heavy sweat, always use a hydration pack for spring tours.

[sethschmautz]

I'm gonna disagree with Big Steve on this one, mainly because of my own preference while touring. Since I started using the BCA pack I stayed better hydrated and haven't had the freezing problems. For me, and not necessarily for everybody else, I like the hydration pack. Does issued a hydration pack have to be wrong or can it be not preferable you?

[bfly]

Never tried it but Geigerrig makes a "Tube Garage" that you can fit a hand warmer in.

[2wheeler]

I'm gonna disagree with Big Steve on this one, mainly because of my own preference while touring. Since I started using the BCA pack I stayed better hydrated and haven't had the freezing problems. For me, and not necessarily for everybody else, I like the hydration pack. Does issued a hydration pack have to be wrong or can it be not preferable you?

Staying hydrated is very important while touring and for recovery. If a hydration pack lets you do that better then go for it.

[GeezerSteve]

Does issued a hydration pack have to be wrong . . . .

It's not wrong. But it's unnecessary. If you are sweating so much on a sub-freezing tour that you need to hydrate between breaks, you are doing something wrong, e.g., wearing an necessary wicking layer that promotes unnecessary sweating. This from a 95th %-tile sweater who uses a hydration bladder/hose on virtually all tours >40F.

[Gerome]

I really like that Mountain Hardwear has an internal pocket on their soft shell jackets that is large enough to hold a 32oz nalgene. The blowback method has usually worked fine for me, but it's nice to have another option, especially one that is very accessible and doesn't leave the bottle strapped to the outside of a pack.

[2wheeler]

It's not wrong. But it's unnecessary. If you are sweating so much on a sub-freezing tour that you need to hydrate between breaks, you are doing something wrong, e.g., wearing an necessary wicking layer that promotes unnecessary sweating. This from a 95th %-tile sweater who uses a hydration bladder/hose on virtually all tours >40F.

In very cold weather you'll loose a lot of moisture through breathing, even if you're not sweating. The low specific humidity of the air means that with each breath you loose more moisture to the outside air. At -20 C air of equal relative humidity has 1/5th the moisture of air at 0 C and 1/15th the humidity at 20 C. If you're breathing heavily you can loose a significant amount of water over a few hours through breathing alone.

[GeezerSteve]

Cold weather increases water lost through respiration about 1 teaspoon per hour. Total water loss through respiration accounts for about one cup, two cups max, for an 8-hour tour. See European Hydration Institute: Key Tips on Hydration in Winter:

Daily respiratory water loss is normally about 250 to 350 mL/day for sedentary people, but can increase to 500-600 mL/day for active people. [citation omitted]
* * *
Breathing cold, dry air can increase respiratory water loss by approximately 5 mL/hour {citation omitted]

5mL = roughly 1 teaspoon

[2wheeler]

Cold weather increases water lost through respiration about 1 teaspoon per hour. Total water loss through respiration accounts for about one cup, two cups max, for an 8-hour tour. See European Hydration Institute: Key Tips on Hydration in Winter:

5mL = roughly 1 teaspoon

But your citation indicates:

"stressful physical exercise in cold weather can increase this loss to approximately 15 to 45 ml/hour1 because of the increased rate and depth of breathing."

Surely backcountry skiing can be a stressful physical exercise? or am I doing that wrong too? Unfortunately the temperatures aren't defined in this presentation. Seeing as the difference in absolute humidity wrt temperature is exponential, I would think an important term to define. Other citations indicate a larger amount of water losses:

"And so at the heart rate of 140 bpm amount of exhaled water is approximately four times higher than during the rest and equals about 60-70 ml/h" (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22714078).

If you check the reference cited in your presentation you'll see an estimate of 90ml/h loss at -20 C and a "moderate heavy" work rate (http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10925&page=81). It should also be noted that this is calculated at 100% humidity, so in the real world the loss number would be higher. So it looks like over a long tour on a cold day you could easily expect to lose nearly a litre of water from breathing.


Also interesting to note that you pee more when it's cold, leading to more loss of fluids (see your own reference).


I can also attest that after long tours on cold days I have experienced the familiar symptoms of dehydration including headache and poor recovery.

[sethschmautz]

I'm not going to cite all off the 2wheeler's post, but it was a good read and it seemed to confirm my own observations about myself. Steve, I respect your opinion on touring, and I have learned a lot from your posts. I may be doing the whole damn thing wrong :-) but I'm going to stick with my hydration pack and my more frequent hydration. Like you, I sweat a lot. I usually climb in a lightweight capilene long sleeve shirt and have to move REAL slow to stay dry. I'm always at a delicate balancing point between freezing and sweating, unfortunately. It takes a lot of effort for me, even with the hydration pack, to keep from getting dehydrated.

Thanks for the great dialogue.

Seth

[GeezerSteve]

a lightweight capilene long sleeve shirt

wicking away moisture and your body heat to heat up the entire atmosphere, eh? Answer: semi-VB w/ venting strategy, keep in the heat and moisture, avoid chills, sweat less, keep your insulating layers dry for breaks.

[glademaster]

I sweat like crazy within about 5 minutes of starting to skin, and don't stop. Regardless of weather or clothing choices, I accept that I am going to be drenched at the end of each lap, and carry enough layers with me to stay comfortable on the way down despite that fact.

Clearly I didn't have eugenicists for ancestors like Big Steve, because I'm not such a shining example of perfect physiology.

[LightRanger]

^^^ See? Muadib proselytizes about the wonders of VBLs! Praise him!

[GeezerSteve]

Clearly I didn't use semi-VBs

FIFY

....

[Two06]

Hydration hose is clutch when booting up steep couloirs for hours or banging out inbounds laps and easily hydrating on chair.

[cat in january]

Platypus soft bottle in your jacket pocket for resort skiing.

Water bottle in insulated cozy for touring.

Last thing I want is to carry more shit touring (ie, a heating element).

Nailed it for me. I discovered the Platypus soft bottle in the pocket about 4 years ago. When I take western ski trips staying hydrated helps a lot with the elevation and I can just fill at a fountain in the lodge. I have been adding powdered sport drink to my bottles in my pack.

[GeezerSteve]

Soft bottles for the win. Evernew water carrier > Platypus soft bottle. Evernew is tougher, thicker poly, has much better cap and cap threads (i.e., 2X thread engagement) and nice cap retainer. 600ml or 900ml fits well inside a coat pocket. 600ml great for liquor. Platy hydration hose fits Evernew bottles, but better, w/ more thread engagement. As our Platys fail one-by-one we replace them with Evernews. FWIW, I make DIY custom bags (usually silnylon) to cover my bladders to protect them from abrasion. Also, the Evernew threads mate up perfectly with a Sawyer Squeeze water filter; the 2L Evernew = best Sawyer Squeeze primary bottle.

[2wheeler]

Soft bottles for the win. Evernew water carrier > Platypus soft bottle. Evernew is tougher, thicker poly, has much better cap and cap threads (i.e., 2X thread engagement) and nice cap retainer. 600ml or 900ml fits well inside a coat pocket. 600ml great for liquor. Platy hydration hose fits Evernew bottles, but better, w/ more thread engagement. As our Platys fail one-by-one we replace them with Evernews. FWIW, I make DIY custom bags (usually silnylon) to cover my bladders to protect them from abrasion. Also, the Evernew threads mate up perfectly with a Sawyer Squeeze water filter; the 2L Evernew = best Sawyer Squeeze primary bottle.

Does anyone make any insulted soft bottles?

[rod9301]

Big steve, would you use the semi vbl on a spring tour? And what is a SEMI vbl?

I'm going to traverse the sierras in april, and I'm also wondering if I should skin in tight leggings and keep full zip light rain pants for when it's windy or snowing.

Instead of soft shell pants, which are kind of warm in the brutal california sun.

I was going to use a smartwool long sleeve, but some people recommend a thin white button shirt.

[cat in january]

Does anyone make any insulted soft bottles?

I have never seen one, but imagine it would be easy to sew up. Not sure where the need is because for me at least the whole advantage of a soft bottle is that it goes in the jacket and collapses as water is removed.

Thanks BigSteve on the alternative to the platypus. Never was too happy with the caps on those-too small and white.

[coldfeet]

I'm going to traverse the sierras in april, and I'm also wondering if I should skin in tight leggings and keep full zip light rain pants for when it's windy or snowing.

Instead of soft shell pants, which are kind of warm in the brutal california sun.

I was going to use a smartwool long sleeve, but some people recommend a thin white button shirt.

Light wool slacks are the original softshell pants and would coordinate with your outfit.

For summer hiking, I have lightly insulated a hydration bladder by slipping it inside a bubble padded shipping envelope.