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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    33,546
    When I talked to WARY guys a while back they said their biggest and increasing problem was getting the things into stores for people to see. That was before the number of manufacturers really exploded like it has the past year or so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Last Best City in the Last Best Place
    Posts
    7,267
    On the subject of airbags, I can't find anything online about whether JP Auclair, Andreas Fransson, or Liz Daley were wearing airbags, whether they deployed, or whether these avalanches were so huge as to be unsurvivable...anybody got any info on that? Maybe details will be forthcoming, but so far I haven't seen much at all.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    truckee
    Posts
    23,111
    In the study the airbag reduced mortality 11%, not 50%. Using relative risk reduction is a well known tactic in medical research to hype otherwise unimpressive results. Say you're testing cancer drugs. One reduces mortality from 100% to 50%. The other drug, for a different disease, reduces mortality from 4% to 2%. They both cut mortality in half. Which is a better drug? To apply to airbags--supply airbags to 500 skiers in each of 2 1000 skier groups, one that skis in very high risk situations, the other cautious. In the high risk group avalanche mortality is 100% without bags, 90% with--a 10% relative risk reduction. In the low risk group mortality is 20% without ABS, 10% with--a 50% relative risk reduction, risk cut in half. But in both groups the same number of skiers--50--survived with bags who would have died without. So although the relative risk (risk ratio) is much different in the two studies, the actual benefit, in terms of lives saved is the same. Nonetheless, I'm sure the industry will be using the 50% figure in the study, not the 11% figure.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    161
    I actually just saw something today about how they think the air bag may be less effective than originally though.
    Still even a 1% chance is better than nothing.

    I would assume, being pro's they WOULD have airbags. I would also assume it would have been a big one. Probably wont hear much out of respect, that's normally the way, which is a good thing.

    Thats a good report there Old Goat.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    895
    Quote Originally Posted by Full Stoke George View Post
    Probably wont hear much out of respect, that's normally the way, which is a good thing.
    Why is that a good thing?

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    161
    Because then you don't have media types probing their family and friends for information, when they already have enough to deal with.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    895
    That's nice and all, but then we won't get to learn much from the pro's mistakes and experiences, and those mistakes and experiences are the ones that get the most attention.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    A LSD Steakhouse somewhere in the Wasatch
    Posts
    13,234
    we should totally scrap the ntsb osha and have a moratorium on all avvy indecent reports outta respect
    hell yeahs goat
    all that was missin was a ross perot devils in the details gif
    talkin to some 1st responders and peeps the other day
    about craig patersons unfortunate incident on kessler , because he was solo
    there isn't anyone who can prove in that tragedy
    deploying his airbag hindered his ability to self arrest.
    you can speculate whatever
    When the avalung 1st came out and we were all arguing about it's effectiveness and skiing w/ it in your mouth
    ole crackhead
    said
    "right about the time i thought about puttin it in my mouth i was asking wtf am i doing in this terrain in these conditions"
    instead of will this equipment work
    or sumthin to that effect
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Alps
    Posts
    2
    speaking of airbags, i just scored myself a mammut ride 30 over at http://www.bergzeit.co.uk/mammut-rid...g-black-smoke/ If you enter the voucher code "wepowder" it deducts
    301 euros off the price. It looks solid, no BS

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    A LSD Steakhouse somewhere in the Wasatch
    Posts
    13,234
    a win for avvy bags and another save statistic?
    or a loss for common sense and darwinism thwarted?http://utahavalanchecenter.org/avalanches/18960
    i'm going latter but don't do studies or take much head in em
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  11. #36
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Ibk
    Posts
    890
    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    So although the relative risk (risk ratio) is much different in the two studies, the actual benefit, in terms of lives saved is the same. Nonetheless, I'm sure the industry will be using the 50% figure in the study, not the 11% figure.
    sure they will

    ABS at least did marketing with a "97% survival rate" which was quite stupid. they just ejected that from their website. in Europe we have no a kinda good dataset.
    The 97% came because ABS paid, once filled out a form that said you pulled your airbag in a slab, you a new cartridge (worth aroudn 100euro). most people do nothing with a small slab when nothing happend. but they did with this offer from abs in mind. I know a lot of people who pulled the trigger for test purpose, filled out a form and got a new 100e cartridge.
    smart marketing, bad data.
    Now they have to change that and the world has some valid data (once again: it says only about the mortality rate in medium to big sized avalanches. small and really big once are not included.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    A LSD Steakhouse somewhere in the Wasatch
    Posts
    13,234
    awesome given my choice i prefer my avalauches to be small
    why not include big ones?
    The take your potatoes chip bag place it under the wheels of your car and back over it a few times
    aint any big chips left is there?
    is my favorite airbag anology
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

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