School me on Building to Building Wireless options

[Alpinord]

With our antiquated outdoor wireless system on the fritz, I need to get up to speed on options to consider. The T1 we access is 0.3 miles away with clear line of sight....except when it's dumping out.

-What are the pros and cons of 2.4 vs 5 GHz? What works best in heavy snow and rain?
-Some units I've looked at are listed as 'long range' without any distances shown. Some 'long range' units are 800M or so. What is a 'long range' radio supposed to cover?
-What does needed VOIP capability do to affect choices and specs?
-Any manufacturers to avoid?....Any favorites that are reliably robust for years?
-Any other insights to be aware of trying to install this myself? The providers around here are anything but reliable or responsive and I need to be self-reliant for the most part.

TIA

[RShea]

http://www.tp-link.com/en/article/?faqid=499 is a good starting point for answering some of your basic questions. 2.4 is better at longer ranges, but it can be noisier channels. Best bet is always directional (outdoor if possible) antennas fine tuned for best signal.

Biggest issues with VOIP is to make sure you have QOS set up and minimize your delays in that traffic along with having the required bandwidth for the number of lines running.

I'd look at some of the industrial or at least "business class" stuff out there- Cisco, Ruckus, Meraki, Aruba and some others have the items you will want to investigate to consider for this.

[Skidog]

ugh...thats a rough deal.

Is there no way to get internet (wire) to the building .03mi away? and T-1? Really?

[abraham]

Could have something to do with the company that installs the line. I know at my parents house it took a lot of convincing for the fiber optic installers to run into the west side of the house rather than digging under the drive way and around the house to the east side.

Of course the contractors for the cell companies that have towers on or building are very flexible to work with the businesses around our building. But they are paid differently.

No real advice on original question, we had an extender of some sort at the house I rented a while ago but it never worked well.

[SB]

Wireless bindings?

[ryan b]

Might be overkill but our local microwave isp uses stuff from these guys:

http://www.ubnt.com/products/

We get our signal from a tower 6+ miles away and it is solid and not overly effected by the weather. We have what looks like one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/NanoBridge-Cos...ustomerReviews

on the side of our house and the reviews make it sound like you can just buy two, point them at each other and dial the power way down.

In the past i've also messed around with dd-wrt flashed routers in repeater bridge mode and homemade/aftermarket antenas but if doing it again i'd probably just spring for the the NanoBridge.

[Alpinord]

It's 3/10ths of a mile (~~1600 feet) away. Running a line isn't practical for several reasons.

Anyway, it looks like the wireless approach is on the way out. I finally got some input from our ISP who tested the T1 and found it to be 'maxed out'. So it may not be entirely (if at all) the wireless system. I suspected this and we are last on the food chain. Everyone else gets 1st dibs on bandwidth. So looks like a direct connect to T1 is in our future.

I've been round and round on this for years and was the one who got the neighborhood set up with the original T1 and wireless 10 years (+/-) ago. DSL is not an option because we do not have enough people to justify the switching costs to the phone company. Line of sight to a micro-wave tower 4 miles away is out to to a line of trees on a ridge. Other wireless options to a major tower is out due to being in the 'mountain's shadow'. To boost cell service, I've aimed a kagi antenna from another ridge across from these towers to get the bounced signal.

For others, you can bond T1s to increase speeds up to 8 x 1.5Mps 12Mps, but it is spendy. Small price to pay for 360° views, star filled skies, few neighbors and skiing/biking out the back door.

[RShea]

T2, T3, OC1 (all probably pricey) or even dual T1's with a good business class router supporting dual wan that again allows advanced features like QOS for VOIP, but just like trying to use a garden hose and a Y splitter to wash 2 cars at the same time, it can be all about the basic pipeline. Sounds like you are ready to connect up to the fire hydrant to use a water hose analogy.
FIOS and Cable companies offering fiber also would be worth investigating of course.

[Alpinord]

FIOS and cable aren't available either. Thanks for the input. At least the available option is better than the ISDN 'daze'.

[Crass3000]

So is this for work network? Sounds like it. Curious what you pay for a T1? Who's your ISP?

Edit: Just curious as I used to design and install fiber networks and have done work for lots of ISPs all over the country. I know what Qwest used to sell T1s to other ISPs (in Denver area - not sure where you are). I know how costly they can be to the end user. Just curious. You can PM me if you don't want to post it.

If you have a dedicated T1. Your speed shouldn't matter where on the pipe you are but the way it is transmitted to you may. Unless you have a circuit where they guarantee UP TO 1.56mbps if it's available. I guess there are different types of circuits. Frame Relay (if I remember right - it's been a long time.) works like that I think but is usually used for bigger circuits.

As far as "long range" that is sort of a manufacturer specification. You might be able to find technical specs on manufacturer websites in manuals or you may have to call the manufacturer.

[RShea]

Crass, many factors enter into the price of a high speed T1 or bigger circuit. The biggest variable is the cost of the "local loop". Many companies offer up T1 for the $200 to $300 base fee- but that is only to the central office and then they rely on the local telephone company (usually) to provide the last segment of the connection (local loop) which pricing can vary depending on the distance, how many pairs of cooper are available, and some other factors.

Also many of the lower priced T1 lines are without equipment (you have to provide the router, or pay additional to have a managed router rental)... So for a rural area I have gotten $750 and higher rate quotes for a T1. Downtown in a major metro area, pricing and competition is such that the lines tend to be much cheaper.

[Alpinord]

CenturyLink was charging around $400 (IIRC) for a T1. A 'bonded' T1 is $180 plus installation of $400. I'm not clear on the differences between what CenturyLink's T1 would be vs the bonded by our ISP, with the circuit and line provided by CenturyLink. If the T1 is reliable enough, I can port a phone to VOIP and reduce overall costs by eliminating the line costs to basically a wash between what I have been paying with unreliable service.

[sethschmautz]

Alpinord,

If you really have no other options and you're already looking at $400ish/mo, you should think a little about satellite or cellular. I own a company that builds specialty vehicles for government agencies and we do a lot of satellite and/or cellular installs on those vehicles. The satellite service that we sell is high quality and we do a lot of voice. There are a few service types that we don't resell that I would recommend looking at also.

Satellite is a different animal than terrestrial offerings, and there is higher latency (i.e. Delay) that can take a little getting used to (small delay in voice calls) or that don't play well with some services (IPSEC VPN). If you want some more info, send me a pm.

I have been providing satellite connectivity for about 13 years and there are good options and bad options, but if I had no other terrestrial options, I would give it a hard look.

Seth

[Alpinord]

Sounds intriguing, but it'll be less than half of satellite after install.

As a very early adopter of satellite TV for similar reasons, I've considered satellite Internet several times. Latency and signal loss during major dumps and hard rains are cons vs wireless and land lines. The weak cellular signal we get is 3G, though I can sometimes find LTE a 100 yards away.

[iscariot]

Meraki.

https://meraki.cisco.com/

I personally know the guys who developed/built this before they sold the company to Cisco.

Badass and so simple.

[Fenris]

Ubnt is awesome for point to point bridges. Not so great as straight APs though.

I've got a couple bridges setup around campus here, and my biggest problem is making sure the transmit power is turned down enough. My apartment is actually at the end of one of those bridges, and I've only had power when one end got turned off or aimed directly at the ground.

I've spent some time where the connection was a 25 mile link using Ubnt hardware, then another point to multipoint setup around town, that was about as far as it would go, but that was so far outside of the range you can get out of most systems anyways we were happy with what we got.

You're probably not in too crowded of an area for wireless signals so 2.4 vs 5 GHz doesn't matter as much, but there are really only 3 distinct bands that equipment can use in the 2.4 spectrum without interference. 800 MHz should be able to punch through more snow, but haven't had any issues with snow with my 2.4 or 5 links.

VoIP support should mean that the individual links prioritize voice traffic, but as new VoIP applications come out, they are rarely supported, so that shouldn't be too much of a worry. Also your T1 is the limiting factor currently.

Do you know that you could get solid backhaul from that microwave tower? Can you reasonably easily get power up to that ridge? Ubnt AirMax sector on the ridge as the base and then NanoBridge or PowerBeams would probably do the trick.

I poked through a lot of dead equipment around here from previous link attempts, I keep coming back to Ubnt for PtP. AeroHive is my current favorite for AP usage, but that is a whole 'nother ball game.

[Alpinord]

Alpinord,

If you really have no other options and you're already looking at $400ish/mo, you should think a little about satellite or cellular. I own a company that builds specialty vehicles for government agencies and we do a lot of satellite and/or cellular installs on those vehicles. The satellite service that we sell is high quality and we do a lot of voice. There are a few service types that we don't resell that I would recommend looking at also.

Satellite is a different animal than terrestrial offerings, and there is higher latency (i.e. Delay) that can take a little getting used to (small delay in voice calls) or that don't play well with some services (IPSEC VPN). If you want some more info, send me a pm.

I have been providing satellite connectivity for about 13 years and there are good options and bad options, but if I had no other terrestrial options, I would give it a hard look.

Seth

While waiting 3 months for Century Link to set us up with a T1, the neighborhood T1 is 'down hard' for the second time in a week and a half. Last one was for 4 days. (Probably related to a truck backing into a telephone pedestal last summer.) So, currently I'm running a cellular hotspot and a repeater. I got another repeater to expand our internal range and will add another antenna vs a splitter for both. Speedtest says below 1MBs but does seem 'more consistent' (at the moment) than the neighborhood T1/radio network.

While waiting indefinitely for a T1, what cellular options are there to connect the signal to our wifi rather than phone hotspots? I've got a coaxial cable from an TV antenna run from a high point which could terminate at the Airport Extreme. From the high point it ebbs and flows from LTE 2 bars/-90s db, 1 bars/-100s db to 3G 2 bars/-90s db, 1 bars/-100s db.

I've come very close to calling Hughes for a satellite option, but the VOIP uncertainty and reduced cellular rates says to at least see if we can leverage the cellular option.

Seth, how's Hughes? Can you suggest a better satellite option? Costs? Reliability in heavy snows?

[Skidog]

Wow...where in the hell are you located? Seems high speed internet is ubiquitous in all but the MOST RURAL areas...are you in timbuktu?

[skimaxpower]

Wireless bindings?

Atomic did it.. Thankfully, it didn't catch on.

[Alpinord]

See image above. Basically surrounded by mountains except east where trees block line of site to a micro wave option. The excuse in the past for no DSL was there is not enough people around for Century Link to spend the money for the switching.....a mountain puts us in the shadow of the cell towers. Gaining more height or finding a better signal bounce could improve signal and possible net us LTE.

[NmbrdDays]

Are you looking to get better cell service or trying to get an ISP to your house for wifi?

[Alpinord]

Are you looking to get better cell service or trying to get an ISP to your house for wifi?

Ideally, both plus reliable VOIP capability.

Currently, the repeaters help with voice in limited areas. The phone hot spots seem a bit more consistent with lags than our radio from a T1. Having to switch on and off the hot spots and switch to wifi to print is less than ideal.

[NmbrdDays]

Ok, I'm just trying to get an idea of what you have and how far out you are. I've installed ( through my day job ) cell extenders at a couple of police stations. They allow cell service where there isn't any. The catch is a wire needs to be connected to it. Do you have any hi speed internet where you are now? It sounds like you need a hard wire to your residence.

[Alpinord]

If we had DSL as an option most of this would be moot. T1's are our only hard wired option. The higher cost and general lack of responsiveness by our ISP and Century Link (though finally, just got our neighborhood T1 running again), cellular or satellite options are worth considering. If we could reasonably get a nearby LTE signal to work, 10 times the speeds we have might be attainable.

A 'neighborhood' tower/antenna/repeater could turn a corner around a ridge from the cell towers to our little La La Land snow globe. How big and how much for cellular extenders? Could it be mounted on a roof or tree?

[Andeh]

My dad had long range wifi to his house in the hills near Santa Cruz because no hard lines were available - it was awful. That shit would go down constantly, especially in the wind, and bandwidth was slow to begin with and only got slower with any amount of precipitation. The packet loss was insane too... like 10-20%. I mean, it was better than dialup, but not by much.