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  1. #1
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    Avy Level 2 worth the money? (and recommendations for location)

    First of all, I searched for old threads on this topic but didn't find much. If I'm wrong and this has already been discussed, please share the link(s).

    Background: fairly serious backcountry skier, 1-2 tours per week, no resort skiing, took a level 1 class in 2011 with Colorado Mountain School in Estes Park. Ski partners vary from minimum avy education to level 1 to a few level 2.

    Question: Do people that have taken a level 2 course felt as though it was worth the money? I am a grad student so money is tight and a course plus possible lodging isn't cheap. I know that level 2 is alot more snow science than level 1 so am curious how much real-life application there is to learning this material? In other words, I know that realistically, I am not going to dig full profiles pits, use a microscope, thermometer, etc. on everyday tours so is it worth paying for and learning?

    Also: any recommendations on location for a level 2 course? what is the difference between an AAI vs AIARE course? Located in Missoula MT (no level 2 courses by local avy center) so options include Bozeman (gallatin national forest) or is it worth the drive to SLC or Jackson for a bigger avy center course?

    Thanks in advance for first-hand experience and advice.

  2. #2
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    look at community colleges, in mountain towns they offer avie courses, and since they are spread over many weeks, you retain a lot more.

  3. #3
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    I took my level 2 with Colorado Mountain College in Breck. So it was way cheap. I think around $200 for a week of instruction. Well worth it.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantana1 View Post
    ...I know that realistically, I am not going to dig full profiles pits, use a microscope, thermometer, etc. on everyday tours so is it worth paying for and learning?
    Maybe not for you, given your parameters. If I were you and if it's possible, I'd latch on to someone that has taken avy 2 and tour with them as much as I could and get mentored in practical applications. Buy your mentor lots of beer and/or brown liquor of course.

    Also: any recommendations on location for a level 2 course? what is the difference between an AAI vs AIARE course? Located in Missoula MT (no level 2 courses by local avy center) so options include Bozeman (gallatin national forest) or is it worth the drive to SLC or Jackson for a bigger avy center course?
    I took it at the Silverton Center and that was excellent - amazing rock star instructors and the field work was at Red Mountain Pass, where we got some eye-opening conditions. That wasn't inexpensive at all, but someone else might read this thread looking for a recommendation.

  5. #5
    Hugh Conway Guest
    If you've half a brain and are at all inquisitive and try and put 2 + 2 together (not a standard in grad schools by anymeans) it's probably a poor allocation of funds and time unless you've desires for professionality or an addiction to status by education. There's a ton of material available free for reading, as well as just opening your eyes on snow, again and again and again and again and again.

    Education's great for avy's, you can sit in a classroom and have someone tell you how great it is to look at snow and all of the things you can learn by looking at snow, without spending much time looking at snow. Or maybe you'll be on snow and have some gened dropout tell you all about snow and point you in the direction of a crystal or 3. Or you can get to the great wannabe guide level of education, which is great, if you want to be a guide. And like hanging out with "guides"

  6. #6
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    I got my level 2 in Silverton years ago. I got a lot out of it but honestly, I've learned way more by just logging tons of days skiing in avy terrain and paying attention. And no, you won't usually find yourself digging full profile pits or using a microscope for day-to-day backcountry skiing either.
    But it is entertaining to watch snow geeks geeking out!
    Leave No Turn Unstoned!

  7. #7
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    took a weekend avvy 2 because i bought the wife avvy 1 at a fundraiser and they had already filled that class,
    never took avvy 1.
    best part for me was a executing a 2x burial scenario w/ people who you never toured w/ before and the funny thing is not every group did that
    took a semester long snow science course from the u o u
    that course was 1 classroom eve and fri feild days so you dug 10x the pits and was a much better bang for the buck snow science knowledge wise.
    i tend to look at it as you never know where it might be that the nugget of info, chunk of wisdom, or learning experience that makes a difference,
    comes from
    i'm a slacker
    so it's all worth it for me
    could a grad student study/read the avvy handbook or find everything covered in avvy 2 from partners or other sources w/ out spending $$$?
    i'd say yes
    Last edited by skifishbum; 09-29-2014 at 07:39 PM.
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
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  8. #8
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    I try to throw in a little avy education every year. Whether it's attending a lecture, reading a book, or taking an avy class. Keeps you interested and on your toes.

    I took a Avy2 a few years ago and found it to be pretty beneficial, but I knew most of the curriculum already. I got a whole lot more out of just touring with the people who were "outside my box" and getting the perspective of not only the teacher, but also the other students. I'd say, taking your class in another zone than where you travel frequently and with other people who think differently is definitely beneficial.

    Like others mentioned. CMC and other colleges offer classes for cheaper, but they are also a little more structured. I've heard great things about the Silverton classes. A few friends took a class last year and got a lot out of it.

  9. #9
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    Thanks everyone for the input. I've read bruce tremper's "staying alive in avalanche terrain" more than once and plan to read through it again soon before the season starts. And I do my best to go to a short avy intro/refresher class at the start of every season.

    My main attraction to a structured avy course is the time out in the field but I think myself (and most all BC skiers) would benefit from simply more self-discipline in forcing oneself to dig more thorough pits and doing more beacon search practice. I think too few BC skiers practice these skills enough (myself included).

  10. #10
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    Taken Avy 2 but if I were doing refreshers I think Avy 1 is better for me . A lot more snow science, technical stuff and time spent on recording pit results in avy 2 than terrain management and general situational awareness in avy 1. It's all good and you can never learn enough. The more I learn the more ignorant I feel and I take way less risks which is a good thing.
    License to kill gophers by the government of the United Nations

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantana1 View Post
    Thanks everyone for the input. I've read bruce tremper's "staying alive in avalanche terrain" more than once and plan to read through it again soon before the season starts. And I do my best to go to a short avy intro/refresher class at the start of every season.

    My main attraction to a structured avy course is the time out in the field but I think myself (and most all BC skiers) would benefit from simply more self-discipline in forcing oneself to dig more thorough pits and doing more beacon search practice. I think too few BC skiers practice these skills enough (myself included).
    I think you're onto something there. The best way I've learned about snow is being out there, digging pits. As I have progressed as a BC skier, I have grown to really enjoy looking at snow and almost always dig at least a hasty pit. It also helps that I'm in better shape they I once was so if I have to stop to wait for someone to catch up I'll take that moment to poke around in the snow. Skiing with more experienced BC skiers helps too; watch what they do, why they think its a go or a no-go. I find just talking about snow with my partners, explaining my interpretations of the snowpit/conditions really helps. Last year, I went up with a new partner and while I was digging my pit, he went out and dug his own pit; it was very reassuring that we both got the same results and isolates the same weak layers. Also, setting off avy's is a great way to learn about em just make sure no one is below ya

    Lastly, I'm all about re-reading Avy books at the start of every season and really like Bruce Tremper's, but last year I switched it up and bought the "avalanche handbook." I felt reading a new book and maybe a slightly different interpretation of the same material was very helpful/useful. Plus if I recall you think most level two courses use the handbook as their textbook, but I could be wrong. i also enjoy reading incident reports both past and present.

  12. #12
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    Like Hugh and Brutah points out, the value depends on your objectives.

    If you want to learn more about snow and atmospheric science, it's great

    If you want to stay alive, all the info is there in Avy 1, Staying alive, American Avy Assn or the intertubes in general you just have to apply it in the field.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantana1 View Post
    I've read bruce tremper's "staying alive in avalanche terrain" more than once and plan to read through it again soon before the season starts. And I do my best to go to a short avy intro/refresher class at the start of every season.
    Good ideas. I find watching A Dozen More Turns a good refresher on Human Factors as well.
    http://ullrlabs.com/amber_seyler.html

  14. #14
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    A good instructor is key. I took my AST2 last year and wasn't too happy with the course. My instructor knew a lot about snow packs and he really helped when it came to digging pits. He was also old and slow so we didn't cover much terrain every day and we didn't get much of a chance to see how the snow pack changes based on aspect and elevation.

    There was a backcountry freeride camp happening the same weekend with Greg Hill and Chris Rubens amongst others and I think I would have gotten more out of that. Maybe not on the snow science side, but definitely on the terrain management side.

  15. #15
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    Definitely worth the investment. Any chance to continue learning and brush up on latest technique is always beneficial.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by telebobski View Post
    I find watching A Dozen More Turns a good refresher on Human Factors as well.
    Thanks for the link, haven't seen it before and will definitely watch it when I get a chance.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexC View Post
    A good instructor is key
    Agreed. That is why I think if I decide to take a level 2 it might be worth traveling to Jackson or SLC or somewhere else where the instructors are top notch.

  18. #18
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    Wait until a future season when U.S. avy education is split into rec vs pro tracks (like in Canada), when some sort of beyond-L1 curriculum will be developed that will be much more practical than the current one-size-fits-all L2 (which is focused on snow science & detailed obs).
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Education's great for avy's, you can sit in a classroom and have someone tell you how great it is to look at snow and all of the things you can learn by looking at snow, without spending much time looking at snow. Or maybe you'll be on snow and have some gened dropout tell you all about snow and point you in the direction of a crystal or 3. Or you can get to the great wannabe guide level of education, which is great, if you want to be a guide. And like hanging out with "guides"
    AIARE level II is 1 class day, 3 in the field. and not all instructors are "gened dropouts.." dont really know what that means. sure maybe its expensive, but we live in the US and all education is expensive. but unlike a college education, avy 2 applies to real world situations.
    long live the jahrator

  20. #20
    Hugh Conway Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mantana1 View Post
    Agreed. That is why I think if I decide to take a level 2 it might be worth traveling to Jackson or SLC or somewhere else where the instructors are top notch.
    travel to somewhere with good instructors and a different snowpack and range than you have if you want to broaden your instruction.

    classes != education.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexC View Post
    A good instructor is key. I took my AST2 last year and wasn't too happy with the course. My instructor knew a lot about snow packs and he really helped when it came to digging pits. He was also old and slow so we didn't cover much terrain every day and we didn't get much of a chance to see how the snow pack changes based on aspect and elevation.

    There was a backcountry freeride camp happening the same weekend with Greg Hill and Chris Rubens amongst others and I think I would have gotten more out of that. Maybe not on the snow science side, but definitely on the terrain management side.
    I was in that camp - it was a lot of fun but not a lot of science was discussed. More practical/terrain decision making. Definitely a great camp with amazing guides, and I had an absolute blast, but I wouldn't suggest any camp/course based on touring/skiing in lieu of a course aimed at true technical knowledge. Just my $0.02
    "...if you're not doing a double flip cork something, skiing spines in Haines, or doing double flip cork somethings off spines in Haines, you're pretty much just gaping."

  22. #22
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    I took my course from Crested Butte Mountain guides, we did about an even split of classroom and field time. Worth it for me for sure. CO is a good place to take courses as the snow is going react to testing giving you feedback from your actions vs someplace that tends to have better stability in general.

  23. #23
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    what i got from avie 2. learn the lemons ,know how to identify them, never ignore them.
    off your knees Louie

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    travel to somewhere with good instructors and a different snowpack and range than you have if you want to broaden your instruction.

    classes != education.
    Hugh is right.

    I dont know what the snowpack is like in Missoula but you got a couch in Jackson if you head this way A.
    "The idea wasnt for me, that I would be the only one that would ever do this. My idea was that everybody should be doing this. At the time nobody was, but this was something thats too much fun to pass up." -Briggs
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by shafty85 View Post
    I was in that camp - it was a lot of fun but not a lot of science was discussed. More practical/terrain decision making. Definitely a great camp with amazing guides, and I had an absolute blast, but I wouldn't suggest any camp/course based on
    touring/skiing in lieu of a course aimed at true technical knowledge. Just my $0.02
    Hmm, I felt that course was perfect. Helped me boil down to what is important on a given day/ snow cycle. Knowing which tool in the box to use is really the start of true understanding.

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